Does anyone have a technical answer for PauL?  That is, at what point does
a dent likely affect the performance of a muffler?  I realize that a vague
answer is all the can be provided, but perhaps someone with knowledge
about the innards of the muffler can make an educated guess.

By the way, I also ask this question because I received a dented muffler
from a list vendor.  I haven't had the time to determine if the dent
matters in any way.

David

On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Paul Borghese wrote:

> Guys, let's skip the recycling discussion for a second and go back to my
> original problem.  I have a muffler that looks, in my opinion, very dented.
> The problem I have is that I need to get this van up and running by Friday
> so I can take it with me on Christmas Holidays.  My posting was not to rant
> about using recycling materials -vs- new but if I should return the muffler
> or use it?
>
> So what do you guys think?  Should I use the muffler or not?
>
> Please also, before I receive another message suggesting that I am
> destroying the world, please put my message in context.  I need to get my
> van up and running for the Christmas holiday.  So three weeks before I
> needed it, I ordered a muffler.  It ends up taking much longer to receive
> then anticipated.  When I do receive it, arrives damaged.   So now I am mad
> because I might need to cancel my plans (or at least re-arrange them).  From
> my prospective, this would not have occurred if it was shipped properly.  I
> have no problem with using recycled materials, as long as they protect the
> item being shipped.
>
> Also, please do not take this as a giant attack on Bus Depot.  As I said in
> my original message, I love Bus Depot and have happily spent 1000's of
> dollars with them.  But I do need to get my van up and running.
>
> So, please if you thought my posting was an attack on the environment, or an
> attack on Bus Depot, please accept apologies.  I just need to get my van up
> and running and was looking for some advice.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Paul
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "The Bus Depot" <busdepot@EMAIL.COM>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 9:21 AM
> Subject: Re: Very dented muffler AND Recycled Packing
>
>
> > > I just received my brand-new muffler from Bus Depot.
> > > The muffler now has a series of very large dents.
> > > Should I send it back? Will the dents effect performance?
> > > I love bus depot but why the hell can't they just purchase new
> > > boxes?  Every time I order something it arrives in a beat-up old
> > > box with wrapped newspaper instead of proper filler!  You can
> > > purchase a new box at a manufacturer for under 75 cents!
> >
> >
> > > The difference between appearance parts and performance parts
> > > is in the eye of the buyer. I know guys who would take back a
> > > starter for cosmetic reasons. If you want to return the dented
> > > muffler it's your choice.
> > > The small retailer can get away with reusing shipping/packing
> > > materials because the costs saved are more than the costs spent in lack
> > > of conformity (can you imagine GM or VW using old boxes for their
> parts?)
> > > The balance of costs saved and resulting lower prices is augmented by
> > > the environmental impact of adding to the waste stream.  Unlike
> newspaper
> > > styrofoam shipping "peanuts" won't decay in months. In many other
> cultures
> > > our newspapers and "throwaway" boxes would spend second and third lives
> > > before being discarded.  Reduce,recycle,reuse.
> >
> >
> > In some ways Stephen answered this better than I could have.  Re-using
> boxes
> > and using shredded waste paper and newspaper for packing is a conscious
> > decision based primarily on environmental concerns. Although make no
> > mistake; it also saves you money.  On average, given the size/capacity of
> > the boxes we'd need, buying new boxes/packing for each order would cost
> > about $2-3 per order, which would directly be passed on to you.  But more
> > importantly, we would be buying large volumes of brand new cardboard and
> > packing, while at the same time throwing away perfectly good boxes and
> > packing that our suppliers' shipments arrived in every morning.  The
> amount
> > of cardboard and paper waste that we would generate every single week
> would
> > nearly fill up a Vanagon - no exaggeration.   It would tug at my
> conscience
> > to do that.
> >
> > We do buy new boxes for some items now, notably bumpers and some other
> large
> > items, simply because it is too hard to find good used ones. But my wife's
> > friend in Reading works at a business that throws out their extra boxes
> and
> > peanuts, and twice a week my wife brings them home (you can fit more boxes
> > in a Beetle than you think!), plus periodically I drive up there (1-1/2
> hrs
> > round trip) and load my van full.  (This is certainly more time consuming
> > than simply buying new boxes and "peanuts.")  The corner grocer saves me
> his
> > unsold Sunday papers, and once a month I pick them up to use for packing.
> > And there are shredders located throughout the shop; waste paper (of which
> > we generate much) becomes packing material rather than garbage. We ship
> > 50-100 orders a day with a 6-8 person crew, yet our weekly garbage fits
> into
> > two medium sized garbage cans.  I feel good about that.
> >
> > It's worth noting that this sort of packing is not unusual in our
> business.
> > With one exception, _all_ of our wholesale suppliers ship our parts to us
> in
> > used boxes with bunched up newspaper as packing, just as we do. (Only
> > Motorworks ships every single order in a brand new box and with brand new
> > packing.)  So the method is tried and true. Of course, you can't control
> > whether UPS drop-kicks the box in shipping, which seems to happen often.
> You
> > should see the condition of some of the Motorworks boxes I've received,
> and
> > I know for a fact that they were new when they left there. (When you get a
> > box from us that looks beat, don't assume it left here that way. Be wary
> of
> > shipping damage that may result in a UPS claim; call us immediately and
> save
> > the box and packing if damage is discovered.)  So the order has to be
> packed
> > well regardless of the "age" of the packing material.  My employees get a
> > weekly bonus for good performance, and each "packer" has to individually
> > sign off on every box that he packs. If you complain about improper
> packing
> > or a missing part, the guy who packed your order has to pay about half of
> > the re-shipping cost himself, right out of his bonus - so he has quite an
> > incentive to do his job carefully.
> >
> > While most of our incoming shipments arrive packed in newspaper, exhaust
> > shipments often arrive here quite differently.  We get fifty or a hundred
> > mufflers at a time, all thrown into a big crate with no packing
> whatsoever.
> > By the time they reach us (or any retailer) they often have minor dents. I
> > suppose that the manufacturers don't consider this very consequential, as
> > the part has no cosmetic value and will probably be dented sitting
> > underneath the van within a month anyway. It is my suspicion that this is
> > where your muffler got dented, Paul.  If the dent is not causing any sort
> of
> > rip at a seam (and is not severe as in "crushed" rather than dented), then
> > it will not affect performance and I would personally not worry about it.
> > But if you are concerned, we would be happy to send a replacement out to
> you
> > today.
> >
> > I can't say that as we grow it may not be neccessary to increase the
> amount
> > of new boxes and packing that we use.  But it is a decision that I will
> make
> > with great reluctance and only as a last resort. Meanwhile I'll continue
> to
> > go out of my way to pick up unsold newspapers and discarded boxes from
> other
> > businesses in the community, and do my part to be part of the solution
> > rather than part of the problem.
> >
> > - Ron Salmon
> >   The Bus Depot, Inc.
> >   www.busdepot.com
> >   (215) 234-VWVW
>