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I use a Coleman Power cat.  It has a built-in fan to circulate the air.  I
camped in a temp of 25 degrees and, with the top down, it was too hot
inside.  The fan spread the heat throughout the van, and I had the the side
windows and the skylight open about 1 inch.  This circulating action also
prevented any 'settling' of deadly gasses folks talked about here.

I am sure you camp in much colder weather, but the fan really helps to
spread the heat.

Chris.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com]On Behalf Of
Randy Charrette
  Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:50 PM
  To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
  Subject: Re: Propane pressure facts

  I guess I started this thread and the truth is I am not happy at all with
the performance of my coleman black cat. I go Skiing and ice climbing in the
winter and arrive at my destinations very late at night. This heater can not
keep up for the cold that I encounter. However it was affordable,and I had
read good things about it. I would gladly pay a couple of hundred dollars
for a good ventilated system that would fit in a vanagon. Looking on RV
sites I have not found a system under $400, and even at that they are to big
to fit reasonably behind the front passenger seat and still have room(I have
2 dogs and a wife that crash in there too.). So anyone that has found a good
system PLEASE let me know. I am willing to install a propane tank and/ or
aux. battery (plan too anyways). Thank for the propane education!

  Randy Charrette

  87' Syncro weekender

  Longmont, CO

  >From: Dennis Haynes
  >Reply-To: Dennis Haynes
  >To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
  >Subject: Propane pressure facts
  >Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:54:47 -0500
  >
  >There has been a lot of talk about the use of propane heaters these past
  >few days so I though I would clear the air!
  >
  >The pressure in the propane tank is a function of the propane and
  >temperature. As long as there is liquid in the tank, the pressure will
  >be close to that stated in the chart.
  >http://www.gasplants.com/property.htm A bulk tank and portable cylinder
  >will have the same pressure at the same temperature. Note that propane
  >and butane are great for carrying in small containers because they
  >compress to a liquid easily. The latent heat of vaporization explains
  >why a propane tank gets cold as the gas is being used. Yes, heat has to
  >be absorbed in order to create the vapor you burn to make heat. Yes the
  >relatively low pressure needed to compress to a liquid also makes it
  >possible to use as a refrigerant.
  >
  >Most propane appliances need the vapor pressure reduced to 11" water
  >column pressure. This is the job of the regulator. Appliances designed
  >to work with portable cylinders rely on an orifice to limit the flow,
  >thus reducing the pressure during use to a level appropriate for the
  >device. The major advantage of propane as compared to other fuels is
  >it's extremely wide flammability range. Air fuel mixture is not critical
  >for a clean burn. The down side here is that any propane out of control,
  >(a leak), presents a real hazard since the vapor is easy to ignite and
  >reducing the oxygen supply will not extinguish it. You would never see
  >an electric pump placed inside a propane tank like we frequently see in
  >gasoline tank. Yes. The pump in the gas tank relies on the fact that
  >there is little oxygen so there is little chance of ignition. Another
  >problem with a propane fire is the fact that the tank is already under
  >pressure. As the tank is heated in a fire, the vapor pressure will rise
  >rapidly, especially as the propane tries to boil. This can cause a
  >BLEVE, (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion).
  >
  >Using a non vented heater in a Vanagon is not very smart. I did this
  >many years ago and now consider myself lucky. These heaters need proper
  >ventilation to ensure a safe oxygen supply for you and to ensure no CO2
  >accumulates. I believe the recommendation is two 12" X 12" openings for
  >each 5,000 Btu. One opening high, one low. Not much is going to remain.
  >Remember, most of these things are designed for tents. If you must use
  >these, get a good propane alarm and CO2 alarm and mount according to the
  >directions. You should also make sure the heater has low oxygen cut off.
  >Do not rely on the battery operated units. Go to an RV supply and get
  >the permanently installed 12 volt models.
  >
  >All combustion produces water vapor as a by product. In the winter this
  >will accumulate behind the interior panels of the van and never dry out.
  >It will even get inside the square tubes in the sides and roof of the
  >vans. My 1970 van rusted in places I never though possible in only 2
  >years of occasional camping this way.
  >
  >If you really need to add heat your van, you should go with a
  >permanently installed, vented heater. Do it right. It is your life at
  >stake here. As for connecting the portable heaters to a bulk cylinder, a
  >good RV supply can get you the needed fittings and adapters. Marshall
  >Brass makes a great T that goes between the tank valve and the
  >regulator. (Extend a Stay).
  >
  >Last spring, I posted a line of portable heaters that stayed outside and
  >used a 3" hose to pipe in the heat. I forgot what brand they were. I'll
  >look some more and repost when I find it.
  >
  >Hope some of this helpful. Remember, be very careful suing propane and
  >these portable heaters. It only takes one mistake or unknown situation
  >to make a disaster.
  >
  >Dennis
  >

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