Thanks for nothing Marshall.  What a waste of time it must have been for you to even reply to my problem.  It's people like you that really make new subscribers to this forum feel welcome.  If you don't have any useful information for peoples questions or problems keep your fingers off the key board.  Every time I come to this forum I either get no reply to my questions or a smart ass answer like this one.   Ken Lewis was nice enough to offer me some advise.  Thanks Ken I'll check those things out.  I think it's a great thing to have a place where Vanagon lovers can come to share their ideas and offer help to others, but what I have seen in the past and yet again today is a simple lack of respect for others.  Jeff Emrick