---- Original Message -----
From: "Stan Wilder" <wilden1@JUNO.COM>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care! - more b-l blurb

> I'm beginning to love this link.
> Each day I see it I have something to rave about.
> Just install the darn things and if they work then they work. If they
> don't work then contact Clive and he'll contact the British version of
> NASA and get you proper instructions.

That would be RAE Farnborough I suppose, or failing that, some of his very
old, tired (and scoop bored) brain cells!

> I added some scoops to my existing Vanagon air intakes and it blew up my
> engine ............... it looked just like a big balloon in there.
> It sure did stink when it flagellated all that extra air out.
>
> Stan

> On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 23:12:59 +0100 Clive Smith
> <clive.harman-smith@NTLWORLD.COM> writes:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "80 Westy Pokey" <pokey@VANAGON.ORG>
> > To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 6:11 PM
> > Subject: Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care!
> >
> > >What I really want to know is what happens to the airflow
> > >once it enters the engine bay? After all the airflow entering
> > >has to also exit. Would increasing the flow of exiting air
> > >create a suction that would help breach the boundary layer?
> >
> > There is no need to 'breach' (whatever that is) the boundary layer
> > as its
> > very thin at even 70 mph at (even) the back of a Vanagon.
> > The quotes you took from the 'stolen' material were just that -
> > quotes -
> > with no context and little relevance.
> >
> > The state of the boundary layer just fore of the intake, flush or
> > scoop,
> > laminar or turnulent, probably has little if any effetc on the flow
> > rate
> > into and through it. As various contributors have said in these
> > mails, the
> > pressure distribution at the inlet and exit is predominantly the
> > deciding
> > criterion. There is no appreciable RAM effect (on pressure) until
> > well over
> > 100 mph, so if the exhaust (exit) pressure is not lower than
> > atmospheric,
> > there will be considerable 'spill' which creates drag. This is the
> > main
> > thing the flush (VW) or NACA (optimised flush) inlet avoids.
> >
> > Clive
> > '88 Syncro Transporter (with laminar flow side panels :-)
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "80 Westy Pokey" <pokey@VANAGON.ORG>
> > To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 6:11 PM
> > Subject: Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care!
> >
> >
> > > OK, I "Googled" and  stole this from:
> > > http://www.aviation-history.com/theory/lam-flow.htm&e=653
> > > Then applied the principals to our Vans:
> > >
> > > STOLEN MATERIAL BEGINS
> > > ==============================================================
> > > The airflow next to any surface forms a "boundary layer", as
> > > the flow has zero velocity right at the surface and some
> > > distance out from the surface it flows at the same velocity
> > > as the local "outside" airflow.
> > >
> > > Consider the finish on your Vanagon in non-rainy conditions.
> > > Dust and leaves have settled on the (admittedly short) hoods
> > > paint. We go for a drive. At once the leaves blow off. But
> > > the dust remains. We speed up. Even if we go very fast, the
> > > dust remains because of the thin layer of air that moves with
> > > the van. If you drive with dew on your van, the dew will not
> > > so quickly be blown dry where the air flow has this thin
> > > laminar layer. Downstream, where the laminar flow has become
> > > turbulent, the air flow quickly dries the dew.
> > > ==============================================================
> > > STOLEN MATERIAL ENDS
> > >
> > > Since the further you move away from the body, the greater
> > > the airflow, wouldnt a scoop still increase airflow into the
> > > upper air intakes because it creates turbulent air outside of
> > > the laminar flow? Wouldnt it stand to reason that the
> > > further out you get from the boundary layer the more moving
> > > air you can grab? If scoops dont work why do modern F1 cars
> > > still use them?
> > >
> > > What I really want to know is what happens to the airflow
> > > once it enters the engine bay? After all the airflow entering
> > > has to also exit. Would increasing the flow of exiting air
> > > create a suction that would help breach the boundary layer?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > > ---- Original message ----
> > > >Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:23:17 -0400
> > > >From: "G. Matthew Bulley" <gmbulley@bulley-hewlett.com>
> > > >Subject: RE: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care!
> > > >To: <pokey@vanagon.org>
> > > >Cc: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> > > >
> > > >I'd suggest Googling on "laminar flow" "intake" and "hood
> > > scoop",
> > > >(separately, and together). There's a bunch of info out
> > > there on the
> > > >efficiencies/limits of both.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Developing business and guiding change since 1996,
> > > >
> > > >G. Matthew Bulley
> > > >Bulley-Hewlett
> > > >Marketing & Communications
> > > >Business: www.bulley-hewlett.com
> > > >AIM = IExplain4u
> > > >Phone: +1.919.658.1278
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: 80 Westy Pokey [mailto:pokey@vanagon.org]
> > > >Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:27 AM
> > > >To: gmbulley@BULLEY-HEWLETT.COM
> > > >Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > > >Subject: Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care!
> > > >
> > > >I don't understand the physics of this pressure wave. If it
> > > >were true that the scoops intake was negligible because of
> > > >the pressure wave, then why don't the front vent windows
> > > >produce the same pressure wave? I get HUGE airflow through
> > > my
> > > >front vent windows, aren"t they the same thing?
> > > >
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >Chris
> > > >
> > > >Date:         Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:27:07 -0400
> > > >Reply-To:     "G. Matthew Bulley" <gmbulley@BULLEY-
> > > >HEWLETT.COM>
> > > >Sender:       Vanagon Mailing List
> > > <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
> > > >From:         "G. Matthew Bulley" <gmbulley@BULLEY-
> > > >HEWLETT.COM>
> > > >Organization: Bulley-Hewlett
> > > >Subject:      Re: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care!
> > > >In-Reply-To:  <001a01c24991$49f87360$6401a8c0@mindspring.com>
> > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > > >
> > > >Scoops? For what?
> > > >Maybe I've missed out by being off list.
> > > >
> > > >I pray these are not some sort of DIY 'improvement' the
> > > >laminar flow
> > > >induction duct at the rear of our vans. Boston Bob and I
> > > have
> > > >gone a
> > > >round or two on p-mail in the past over
> > > >his "ears" 'improvements' the
> > > >well-designed VW ducts.
> > > >
> > > >Long and short, if these 'scoops have to do with airflow
> > > into
> > > >the rear
> > > >ducts, think again. Then look at *all* modern sports cars
> > > and
> > > >realize
> > > >that "scoops" have gone the way of the Holley 4-barrel.
> > > >Scoops create a
> > > >pressure wave right in front of the induction hole, making
> > > >their intake
> > > >negligible. Measure your before and after head temp to
> > > >confirm.
> > > >
> > > >Laminar flow ducts, (like on the Vanagon, Porsche Boxster,
> > > >MR2, Saleen
> > > >SR & S7, Honda S2000, and a host of other cars) are
> > > multifold
> > > >more
> > > >efficient, and are only ruined by 'scoops' and 'ears'.
> > > >
> > > >So what are these "scoops" all about?
> > > >
> > > >Developing business and guiding change since 1996,
> > > >
> > > >G. Matthew Bulley
> > > >Bulley-Hewlett
> > > >Marketing & Communications
> > > >Business: www.bulley-hewlett.com
> > > >AIM = IExplain4u
> > > >Phone: +1.919.658.1278
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: Vanagon Mailing List
> > > [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM]
> > > >On Behalf
> > > >Of Mark Thoma
> > > >Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 12:06 AM
> > > >To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> > > >Subject: Custom Scoop Update - Should you care!
> > > >
> > > >The scoop on the scoops,
> > > >After patching up my screw ups on one of the scoop molds, I
> > > >took them
> > > >both (right and left) to a boat repair guy here in the
> > > >Cleveland area
> > > >who does a lot of fiberglass gelcoat kinda stuff and he
> > > >said "well they
> > > >look pretty darn nice, but... (like peewee herman
> > > >said, "Everybody's got
> > > >a big but") you need to polish and buff the molds now, then
> > > >spray in
> > > >release agent, then a layer of gelcoat then 4 layers of
> > > >fiberglass cloth
> > > >and the fiberglass cloth needs to go on top of the gelcoat
> > > >while the
> > > >gelcoat is still tacky."
> > > >Me, feeling an assault on my wallet coming on, said "How
> > > >much?"
> > > >He said "$100 bucks for the pair of finished scoops." To
> > > >which I said,
> > > >"Go for it."
> > > >Then he said, "But you can sell these things to all of your
> > > >Vanagon
> > > >buddies and make all your time and effort pay off."  And I
> > > >said "Well
> > > >why wouldn't I just make all the subsequent scoops myself,
> > > >after all I
> > > >have the molds?"
> > > >To which he replied, "You could but the molds have to be
> > > >polished and
> > > >buffed between each use, and that takes a lot of work, and
> > > >then you have
> > > >to shoot the gelcoat, lay the 4 layers of fiberglass cloth,
> > > >etc."
> > > >So I said "Well how much for each set of scoops?"
> > > >And he said "$100 per pair no matter how many pairs we make."
> > > >And I said, "But how much could I sell them for?"
> > > >And he said, "Something this nice, $175 for the pair."
> > > >And I said, "Those cheap bast----I mean those economically
> > > >minded
> > > >fellows on the Vanagon list will never pay that much."
> > > >And he said, "Okay tell them $150 for the pair and you'll
> > > pay
> > > >the
> > > >shipping. And if you don't sell one pair what do you care,
> > > >you still
> > > >have the scoops you wanted in the first place?"
> > > >And I said, "MAKES SENSE TO ME!"
> > > >So that's the long and short of it.  I should have the first
> > > >pair back
> > > >in a week.  I'll take some pictures of them mounted on the
> > > >van and
> > > >you'll know how to reach me should you want a set.
> > > >Mark
> > > >
> > > >Mark Thoma
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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