May I comment gentelmen?
I initially was opposed to the 15 degree installation nmyself, but then this
was  my personal bias based on nothing less than ego or ignorance. I saw
David's set up, did'nt like it, never said this to him(I don't bite the hand
that tea's me)
But, when David drove here in the DOKA a couple years ago- I saw the stock
inline four DOKA engine and the double floor.

Now that changed my mind- because I saw the 15 degree thing not a Fast
Forward or David thing but as a genuine VW thing. And , then I saw David's
course as being right down VW alley.
And so I saw why David has pursued the 15 degree option.

Both have different pro's and cons, and the more options there are , the
more we can make use of what is available.
For David- will the Joker be driving by me anytime soon?
I'd like to see it.

Now that I know that both the 15 and the 50 degree are both VW, what do you
think about the 25 degree?

Robert

1982 Westfalia 50 degrees below zero

>From: David Marshall <vanagon@VOLKSWAGEN.ORG>
>Reply-To: David Marshall <vanagon@VOLKSWAGEN.ORG>
>To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>Subject: Re: engine conversion
>Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 23:51:28 -0800
>
>Again, please see ####
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Alistair Bell [mailto:albell@uvic.ca]
>Sent: March 4, 2003 10:33 PM
>To: vanagon@volkswagen.org; vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com
>Subject: Re: engine conversion
>
>
>please note my ?????
>
>
>on 4/3/03 9:21 pm, David Marshall wrote:
>
> > I guess what what M. Sullivan did on his TDI install was not suitable?
>see
> > this link:
> >
> > http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/vanagon/TDI/
> >
> > #### If I recall correctly he had to do some modifications to make it
>all
> > fit under the lid.  The many TDI installations that I have seen in
>Germany
> > have problems with clearance of the lid and the injector pump and
> > alternator - usually requires removal of sound proofing and shimming
>down
> > the motor a little.  Michael did an excellent job of getting his motor
> > installed - there is lots of custom work done to his swap and his van
>which
> > has lead to his very enviable setup that I give two thumbs up to.  His
>swap
> > is beyond the financial and mechanical means of most of us on the list
>which
> > makes it not as practical for us to choose the path he took
>
>??????So for the rest of us mere mortals we should just mount the bugger at
>15 degrees with your kit?
>
>#### If you want to install a non-grey market motor with minimal hassle,
>sure, why not?  It is not just me who uses a 15 degree mounting system,
>Overland does as well...
>
> > The Tiico install has had alternator induced vibration problems due to
>the
> > its bracket arrangement. But as has just been discussed on this list,
>the
> > alternator bracket swap is a straightforward solution.
> >
> > #### I don't think it is a straightforward solution.  I get a lot of
>people
> > on a regular basis asking me how to fix this problem as they feel that
>Tiico
> > doesn't have the answers that will help them.  The people who have this
> > problem don't feel it is a straightforward fix... they look at it as
>though
> > they are dumping more money on a conversion that was sold as complete
>and
> > they are finding out after it is too late that it isn't as complete as
>they
> > though.
>
>????? you get a lot of people about Tiico problems? So how do you fix it
>then?
>
>Why not look at what Jon <jon@FOREIGNAUTOSUPPLY.COM> just wrote tonight. He
>actually has some solutions instead of sniping.
>
>#### Who's sniping??? looks like you...
>
>
> > I suppose if you want to use some pie pan or a sheet metal box, or build
>up
> > a false floor in the back of your van that's your decision, but tell me
>how
> > that actually provides more storage space!
>
> > #### I understand the difference between more and different, my five
>year
> > old has a good comprehension of this too... to me this solution does
>give
> > you more space.
>
>
>????well maybe you should listen to your 5 year old. You will actually get
>less space, not more. What you get are more compartments and less cargo
>space volume. Less height above engine hatch for large objects if you ever
>want to use you van for hauling things
>
>#### Why are you being so negative?  It is simply more efficient use of the
>limited space we all have.  My family loves the fact that there is more
>room
>for *their stuff* under the rear seat where they can reach it when ever
>they
>need it, not behind the rear seat where the dog is usually drooling on it.
>Daddy's seldom used stuff is under the bed - suits us all fine!  If you are
>going to haul a piano - get a u-haul!
>
>
> > #### Thank you for taking me out of context here Alistair, where did I
>say
> > that the VW factory mounted the motor at 15 degrees in a Vanagon?  I
>just
> > can't quite see where you saw that - can me make we wrong again????
>
>????I don't need to make you wrong. I want to point out that one doesn't
>need to run straight to Fast Forward for a 15degree mounting kit. And to
>point out that your statement that:
> >>If you start messing around with the pullies
> >> like they did in the TiiCo kits then it is vibration city.
>
>
>#### You're failing to carry through on your point here Allister, we were
>talking about how mounting engines at 50 degrees doesn't always clear the
>lid without special adaptations.  Did I say that everyone should run right
>out and get my mounting kit - no, I did not - it is a free world and I am
>forcing no one to use my installation kits.  Some of the vibrations in the
>TiiCo kits ARE caused by non-standard mounting of accessories - this is
>true
>statement.  The ultimate setup is to use the same system the factory did,
>again this is true statement.
>
>?????Is not true. Think about it, these things can be fixed, just like
>Randy's exhaust system and hot start problems in his conversion. Its part
>of
>the game. Of course you may not want to say to the people who come to you
>for advice on how to fix TiiCo vibe problems that it can be fixed, of
>course
>because TiiCo is your competition.
>
>
>#### Randy's exhaust shop originally didn't follow my instructions and he
>had vibration problems, now Randy had a good exhaust system.  Hot start
>problems turned out to be a faulty CIS-E system - Can't see how a mounting
>system would be responsible for either of these issues.
>
>?????And tell me again David, why is it that an engine vibrates more when
>it
>is at a 50 degree angle than at a 15 degree angle? You state on your
>website
>that there is: "No vibration - there is no felt vibration at any RPM when
>the engine is running" with your 15 degree TDI install kit.
>
>Alistair
>(no commercial interest in I4 conversions)
>
>#### Yes, Allister, this is true, there are no vibrations with a correctly
>installed TD / TDI when you use my kit.  If you have a TD or TDI installed
>using the early Diesel motor mounts there is a bit of a vibration issue -
>many T3 shops in Germany will also concur with this statement.  This is why
>the 83 and later Diesel mounts are sought after - less vibrations.  There
>must be some reason why VW refined their motor mounts.
>
>#### It comes down to this Allister, different strokes for different volks,
>four out of five of my customers are installing a Diesel motor of some sort
>and all of these customers are very satisfied with the end results of their
>labour.  In this light, I am not in competition with TiiCo - there is
>definitely a place for their conversion kit.  I am serving two different
>types of people, those who want even more from their vehicle by installing
>a
>more sophisticated motor and those who don't have the $$$ to shell out for
>the TiiCo kit - they are perfectly happy with a $250 Digifant II motor and
>get the who thing rolling for well under 2K US.  I am very sure there are
>also many happy TiiCo owners out there and I whish them all the best with
>their motors too - I'm not throwing stones at anyone and I'm not trying to
>piss you or anyone else off.  I am just pointing out that there are
>advantages and disadvantages to ALL motor swaps out there - even keeping
>the
>original motor - most of all, I was just pointing there was an error in the
>original answer to the original question.
>
>David Marshall
>
>Fast Forward Automotive Inc.
>4356 Quesnel-Hixon Road
>Quesnel BC Canada  V2J 6Z3
>
>http://www.fastforward.ca    mailto:sales@fastforward.ca
>Phone: (250) 992 7775        FAX: (250) 992 1160
>
>- Vanagon Accessories and Engine Conversions
>- Vanagon, Transporter and Iltis Sales and Importation
>- European Lighting for most Volkswagen models

Robert
1982 Westfalia 1987 Wolfsburg

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