The dead horse is still alive.
In my case the heat tabs were not melted, Upon tear down it was
determined to have bad heads which were welded/improperly repaired .
AVP sells motors that have NEW heads and USED/rebuilt heads, and yes
there is a price difference. I'm not sure which kind Ron sells. My
advice - go with the new heads.

-s

On 7/25/05, Robert Fisher <refisher@mchsi.com> wrote:
> ...and the 'War and Peace' award goes to...
> : )
> 
> Cya,
> Robert
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "The Bus Depot" <vanagon@BUSDEPOT.COM>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 12:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Bus Depot Rebuilt 2.1L - opinions?
> 
> 
> > Terry
> > as usual you speak of things you know little about like my
> > work and Joys engine Joys engine had a melted combustion
> > chamber due to a bad injector I spoke with Brien Dews he
> > swapped the new Boston engine in and took the old blown
> > engine out I took her old engine apart and it blew a hose
> > from the overheating not the other way around
> 
> 
> 
> This is somewhat of a reoccurring story when it comes to rebuilt engines
> from any source.  Of course the vast majority of quality rebuilt engines go
> years without a problem, but in the rare cases where there is a problem,
> the
> scenario often plays out like this: Someone's engine blows up, so they buy
> a
> new one and either install it themselves or have it professionally
> installed. Within a relatively short period of time, the new engine
> develops
> some sort of failure. The rebuilder inspects the engine (or has a mechanic
> local to the purchaser do it) and determines that the engine damage was
> caused by some external factor (i.e. overheating, bad fuel mixture, etc.).
> In some cases it may have been a pre-existing problem, and perhaps had
> something to do with why the original engine failed. In other cases it may
> have been caused when the new engine was put in (i.e. failure to properly
> bleed the cooling system, something as minor as a poorly clamped hose, or
> even the failure of an already-marginal part perhaps brought on by the
> extra
> stress of removal and reinstallation). In other cases it may be purely
> coincidental.
> 
> The van owner, of course, desparately wants to believe that the failure was
> due to poor workmanship on the part of the rebuilder. After all, this would
> qualify it as a warranty issue. The rebuilder, on the other hand, has a
> financial incentive to blame external causation, as this means he doesn't
> have to cover it.  And if the engine was installed professionally, the
> mechanic that installed it has a strong incentive to blame the engine
> rather
> than admitting the possibility that something he did (or overlooked) during
> installation might have contributed to the failure. (Or even admitting that
> he has absolutely no clue why the engine failed.)
> 
> Here's where you get into a tricky area. What caused what? For example, did
> the engine overheat because the head bolts were loose, or did the head
> bolts
> loosen due to expansion/contraction as a result of externally-caused
> overheating? While Boston Bob could expound on this much more than I could
> (I'm a parts guy, not a rebuilder), an experienced rebuilder can tell a lot
> about causation by doing an "autopsy" on the engine. There are often
> telltale signs that may identify, with a high degree of certainty, what
> caused the failure. This is generally what the rebuilder will do in the
> event of an engine failure. Also most rebuilt engines have heat tabs
> installed that can identify if the engine overheated.
> 
> This often comes down to an issue of trust and "good faith"  - the honesty
> and the expertise of the end user, the rebuilder, and the shop that
> installed the engine and/or inspected it after it failed.  In the extreme,
> some rebuilders (including a few larger ones) will pretty much blame
> external factors any time their engine fails, in the hopes that the
> customer
> will eventually give up and go away. Getting them to cover anything is like
> pulling teeth, even in the most blatant cases.  At the same time, there are
> some equally dishonest customers (or mechanics) who actively try to cover
> up
> evidence, such as scraping off all of the heat tabs that would have proven
> that the engine overheated, or simply lying and and saying that it never
> overheated when they know perfectly well that it did (and subsequent
> inspection of the engine eventually proves it). More common, I think, is a
> certain degree of wishful thinking. Two mechanics may tell someone that
> that
> short period of overheating before he pulled his van over might have caused
> his engine damage, and one says "no, it couldn't have." Since the Vanagon
> owner desparately wants to believe that he had no hand in the engine's
> failure, he will tend to place more weight on the opinion that matches what
> he wants to hear, even if the weight of the evidence suggests otherwise.
> 
> Obviously I can't tell in advance which of my customers are honest
> (although
> the vast majority are, of course), but I can pick and choose my suppliers.
> This is why I deal with AVP on rebuilt engines. Not that they have never
> had
> a defective product, but I have found them to err on the side of the
> customer in cases where it was even a remotely gray area. I have never seen
> them simply refuse to cover an engine.  Even in cases where there were
> obvious signs of external causation of the damage, they've generally
> offered
> to go halves with the customer. And in rare cases where there was an actual
> manufacturing defect, I've seen them go beyond their printed warranty
> coverage in many cases, such as reimburing labor costs even though their
> written warranty doesn't cover it.  AVP is a small family-run business
> (husband, wife, and son), not an assembly line, and they are upstanding
> people. I have said before that I wish that all of my suppliers were as
> customer-oriented as Erin and Leonard are.
> 
> As for the quality of the engines, I will say that I had AVP engines on my
> last two Vanagons and never had any problems, and I have had hundreds of
> customers throughout the years with the same experience.  Not that they've
> never built a bad engine (nobody has a zero percent defect rate, not even
> VW), but they've been rare, and in those rare cases they were very good
> about standing behind them (to the extent that is reasonable, and even
> often
> beyond that point, as I noted above).  Of course if someone's engine does
> fail they tend to be very vocal about it, especially if they are convinced
> (rightly or wrongly) that they were not to blame. But, with AVP being one
> of
> the last remaining Vanagon engine specialists (Boston Bob being another),
> there are many of their engines out in the field, so a handful of
> complaints
> is still a drop in the bucket compared to the vast majority that have
> worked
> flawlessly.
> 
> It may also be worth noting that among the few who did comment negatively
> on
> AVP engines here, most of them did not actually buy the engine themselves,
> but bought a used van that already had an AVP engine in it. While they may
> say things like "I'm sure it was never overheated or abused," how can they
> possibly know?  (For that matter, perhaps the prior owner knew differently,
> which is why he sold the van in the first place.)  There are many external
> factors that can cause an engine to fail. As some of us know from
> experience, it may only take overheating the van one time to blow a head
> gasket or worse. (That is why I needed an AVP engine in the first place!)
> Before blaming faulty workmanship for an engine problem, you must rule out
> the multitude of external factors that may have caused such a failure. This
> is completely impossible if you did not even own the van at the time!
> 
> For those who feel safer with an official VW rebuild, I do sell them as
> well. In my experience they have roughly the same defect rate as the AVP
> ones, but some people feel safer using "genuine VW" anyway and are willing
> to pay for that.  As for myself, I will buy another AVP engine next time I
> need one. Not just because I trust their product, but perhaps even more
> importantly because I trust them. I feel that if I did have a problem,
> they'd stand behind it and treat me fairly.
> 
> - Ron Salmon
>   The Bus Depot, Inc.
>   www.busdepot.com
>   (215)  234-VWVW
> 
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