That's the direction I'm leaning in at this point.

OTOH, I'm not at all sure I can do one myself effectively. So it's back to
the shop. And back to the original moral or non-moral question.

At least the test is a relatively well-defined labor item. It's the
open-ended stuff that's hard to deal with.

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:45:30 -0800, jon <jon@KENNEKE.COM> wrote:

>Given all that, I really like what Dennis H. says:
>
>"do a leak-down test". At this point, that seems to make the most sense.
>
>J
>
>
>On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, Geza Polony wrote:
>
>> I cleaned the battery terminals with acid and brush. Transmission was
>> replaced a year ago but I'll get out there and clean that too. Other grounds
>>  in the engine compartment I cleaned and replaced with an entirely new
>> ground web that covers everything from the 02 sensor to the cylinder heads
>> to the frame to the ECU. So grounds there are actually doubled.
>>
>> I've removed and replaced the idle stab, including running without on, with
>> no effect.
>>
>> I've done the Bentley FI test sequence at the ECU connector and everything
>> checks out fine. Maybe I should do it again, though.
>>
>> >From the files you attached, it sounds like exactly the same sort of
>> problem. And the same sort of frustration. BTW, I've changed out the Temp 2
>> sensor several times-no change.
>>
>> One thing I'm starting to think is this. Each component of the FI system, at
>> 20+ years old, is SLIGHTLY off its original specs, to say nothing of the
>> compression numbers and the fuel injectors themselves. Each electrical
>> component may check out within specs using a VOM, but the combined error
>> would be enough to throw off an otherwise good idle. Let's say the Temp 2
>> sensor (new) is off 1%, the ECU is tweaked another 1% in terms of the pulses
>> it sends to the injectors, the 02 sensor is not quite as responsive as it
>> should be, and there's carbon buildup on the heads. The combination of ALL
>> these minor errors could lead to the kind of problems I'm talking about.
>>
>> No? And how are you going to correct them all without buying a new engine
>> and all new components?
>>
>> God forbid paying a mechanic to figure that out!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:47:34 -0500, Sam Walters <sam.cooks@VERIZON.NET>
wrote:
>>
>> >Geza,
>> >
>> >
>> >You said you checked the grounds, but didn't say you cleaned them all.
>> >There have been many instances of stumbling FI type problems being cured
>> >when the owner cleaned the grounds, particularly the ones on the
>> >negative terminal of the battery and the transmission.  Of course, all
>> >of them are important.  But people several people who thought their
>> >grounds looked good have solved a difficult problem by cleaning a ground.
>> >
>> >As Jon suggested, the idle control unit can be the problem - it plagued
>> >my 84 for a couple of years and no one could find it although they took
>> >lots of my $$ while searching and installing unnecessary parts.  After I
>> >found the list, I figured it out and got one from a list vendor for $30
>> >and installed it in 5 minutes.
>> >
>> >Disconnect it and connect the ends of the plugs of the wiring harness
>> >that came out of the Idle Stabilizer/Control unit.  You can drive a long
>> >time this way.  It may make for rougher running in cold weather.  If the
>> >problem disappears, and reappears when you reconnect the unit, it is an
>> >easy fix.
>> >
>> >It isn't that hard to take the voltmeter and the Bentley and test
>> >virtually every component in the FI system.  This will help with regard
>> >to things like the injectors as mentioned by Jon.  There is a set of
>> >tables that tell you how to test many components through the holes on
>> >the wiring harness ECU connection and pages of material for checking
>> >individual components.  It is a bit daunting the first time you do it,
>> >but it can easily identify a problem.  I have been learning to do this
>> >lately on my 85 Weekender with the Digijet controlled 1.9l engine.
>> >
>> >Look at the attached files for some suggestions for diagnosis.
>> >
>> >Good luck,
>> >
>> >Sam
>> >
>> >--
>> >Sam Walters
>> >
>> >Baltimore, MD
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Some of you might have read my posts about thinking I had timing problems
>> on my new 1.9 in my '85 Vanagon.
>> >
>> >Upon furthur sleuthing, cyl 1 and 3 seem to not get any gas.
>> >
>> >If I pull the connectors going to either 1 or 3 when the motor is running,
>> it keeps on going, If I do that to either 1 or 4, it dies !
>> >
>> >I've troubleshot as per the Digijet F.I. manual, metering on the ECU
>> multi-pin connector, and all my injectors measure out to 18 ohms as per spec.
>> >
>> >However, what is REALLY odd is that the book states the following for the
>> >respective terminals to the ECU:
>> >
>> >11 & 7 to cyl 2   Mine meters to cyl 4
>> >12 & 7 to cyl 1   Mine meters to cyl 3
>> >23 & 7 to cyl 4   Mine meters to cyl 1
>> >24 & 7 to cyl 2   Mine meters to cyl 2
>> >
>> >And what is odd is that you cannot mistake the injector wires and their
>> bundle to cyl 1 & 2 because they are longer and have to go ACROSS the
>> engine. The respective wires to cyl 3 & 4 are only like 8" or so from the
>> main cable bundle to the ecu !!
>> >
>> >I am getting spark to ALL 4 cyl.
>> >
>> >If I disconnect either plug 2 or 4 when the motor is running (Yes, your 1.9
>> WILL run on 1 cyl !) you can definatly smell the unburned gas in the exhaust
>> and on the plug.
>> >
>> >If I do the same for plugs 1 and 3, nothing, no gas smell, nothing.
>> >
>> >Also plugs 1 and 3 are clean, out of the box clean, 2 & 4 are showing use.
>> >
>> >What's up ???
>> >
>> >Frustrated in Memphis !!!!
>> >
>> >Ken Wilford replies:
>> >
>> >Is this the first time you are trying to run your new engine?  I would check
>> >compression on these two cylinders that you are having the problem with.  My
>> >guess is that they will have zero compression.  The reason for this is
that the
>> >push rods that are not properly seated in the lifters.  This is very easy to
>> >mistakenly do (I know about this problem and still do this from time to
time).
>> >If the push rods are not properly centered in the lifter then they will hang
>> >the valves open and cause zero compression.  The solution is to remove the
>> >rocker arm assembly on the side that you are fixing and reinstall the
push rods
>> >being sure to center them.  Reinstall the rocker arm assembly.  Then
adjust the
>> >valves to zero lash (just touching the ends of the valves).
>> >
>> >It is probably not a fuel injection harness problem (just my experience
again).
>> >FYI the injectors are not individually pulsed.  They are all pulsed at
the same
>> >time and that is why you can plug the wiring harness into any injector
(if the
>> >wires will reach) and it will not make a difference.  You can test the
actual
>> >wiring by swapping the wiring on one side from one injector to the
other.  If
>> >the non-fire follows the injector plug then you have a wiring problem, if it
>> >doesn't then you have a different problem.
>> >
>> >The only other thing that I can think of if you do have good compression is
>> >that you have two bad injectors.  This is possible, but most of the time
these
>> >fail by leaking, not by not opening (just my experience).  Hope this
helps you.
>> >
>> >Thanks,
>> >Ken Wilford
>> >www.vanagain.com
>> >John 3:16
>> >
>> >--
>> >Thanks,
>> >Ken Wilford
>> >John 3:16
>> >http://www.vanagain.com
>> >Phone: 856-327-4936
>> >Fax: 856-327-2242
>> >
>> >85 Troubleshooting
>> >
>> >From:         John Clavin <jc@AUSTIN.RR.COM>
>> >Subject:      Engine Cutout
>> >In-Reply-To:  <200201022050.g02KoCll011338@txmx01.mgw.rr.com>
>> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>> >
>> >After continuing to work the usual cures for my persistent problems with
>> engine stumbling or hesitation, the problem has only gotten worse with my
>> 1985 Vanagon during the past two months. The latest episodes, which now
>> occur daily, involve the engine completely cutting out. The tach crashes
>> *hard* to zero and the engine is *dead*, only to mysteriously revive a good
>> one or two seconds later. Here is the status of my anti-stumbling efforts to
>> date:
>> >
>> >AFM - reconditioned unit just installed (did wonders for overall
>> driveability, eliminated surging, and smoothed out the idle - but no effect
>> on the cutout problem)
>> >
>> >Throttle Plate Switch - installed new cam, adjusted correctly, switch
tested ok
>> >
>> >Temp Sensors - resistance measures within limits per Bentley
>> >
>> >From:         Laurence Smith <lsmith@COGECO.CA>
>> >Subject:      Re: Power loss still in '85
>> >Comments: To: Andree Hurley <ahurley@VIEWIT.COM>
>> >In-Reply-To:  <Pine.BSF.4.30.0201121148390.56320-100000@bemnet.pair.com>
>> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> >
>> >I think the fuel injection is suspect. It can be a PITA to diagnose and
>> resolve.
>> >
>> >Based on the numerous fuel injection problems posted on this list and your
>> description of the problem I would break down the cause into probabilties:
>> >
>> >The high probabilty stuff first: * Worn out Air Flow Meter * Temp II sender
>> gone bad
>> >
>> >Medium probability: * Timing * Idle stabilizer * Vaccuum leak * O2 sensor
>> >
>> >Low probability stuff: * ECU * Fuel pump * Fuel pressure regulator *
>> Throttle switch * Collapsed catalytic * Ground wires * Hall sender * Gummed
>> up injector(s)
>> >
>> >Most of this stuff can be tested with a voltage/ohmn meter and a Bentley
>> manual.
>> >
>> >My guess: Temp II sender
>> >
>> >Laurence Smith Hamilton, ON 90 Westy (fanumbos)
>> >
>> >From:         Chuck Mathis <CMathis227@AOL.COM>
>> >Subject:      Re: 1.9L bogging down on acceleration when hot..anyone
ideas???
>> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>> >
>> >I went through a whole bunch of stuff to try to eliminate a similar problem
>> with my '85. Start with the cheap stuff first.
>> >
>> >Make sure the intake boot is well attached and in good condition. (This was
>> actually my final solution after all the other stuff.) Check the carbon
>> track in the AFM -- mine had a bad spot just above the normal idle position.
>> I enlarged the screw holes in the board and shifted it so that the arm ran
>> on a fresh track. (This was my next to the last step and solved most of the
>> problem.) Check on the condition of all the vacuum lines -- especially those
>> small ones attached to the fuel pressure regulator. Check the fuel pressure
>> and function of the fuel pressure regulator. Try tightening the AFM spring
>> some. Be sure to keep track of the number of notches you move the wheel --
>> you may want to put it back at some point.
>> >
>> >Chuck '85 Wolfsburg Westy - 'Roland the Road Buffalo'
>> >
>> >Idle Stabilizer - new, but bypassing it seems not to make any difference
>> with respect to the cutout and stumbling problem (in fact, with the new AFM,
>> the van runs just as good without this thing, so I have left it bypassed)
>> >
>> >Ignition Coil - resistance checks ok per Bentley (are there other tests?)
>> >
>> >Hall Control Unit and Sender - pass all voltage and operating tests per
Bentley
>> >
>> >Cap & Rotor - good condition, relatively new, rotor ohms out ok
>> >
>> >Plug wires - good condition, resistance ok per Bentley
>> >
>> >Plugs - W7DTC, relatively new - replacing them did not help.
>> >
>> >O2 sensor - relatively new, replacing it did not help.
>> >
>> >CO screw setting - 1-3/4 turns from bottom (remanufactured AFM came set
>> this way). Checked setting against O2 sensor readings and concluded after
>> some adjusting that this was a good setting - O2 sensor readings oscillate,
>> crossing over 0.5 volts, during "normal" warm idle.
>> >
>> >Idle setting - who knows? Most of the time it idles 900-1100. but then some
>> times it revs back and forth from 1000-1500+, other times it stays at 1500+
>> and only slowly comes down. I don't know how to set the idle adjust screw
>> under these conditions.
>> >
>> >Timing - running approx 3-5 deg ATDC (spec for '85 is 5 deg ATDC) - have
>> experimented with settings from 5 deg BTDC to 5 deg ATDC, some differences
>> in driveability but no setting seems to eliminate the cutout or stumbling.
>> >
>> >Grounds - all grounds coming off the left side of the engine ohm out ok
>> >
>> >ECU - visually inspected the circuit board - all solder joints look good,
>> no signs of any overheating
>> >
>> >Vacuum lines - all in good condition, all vacuum devices tested for leaks
>> and checked out ok
>> >
>> >Fuel pressure regulator - measured a few pounds higher than Bentley calls
>> for (both with and without vacuum)
>> >
>> >Fuel filter - will change it this week (but gut feel and past experience
>> tells me this is not going to make a difference)
>> >
>> >After doing some lengthy searches on the archives (again!), it appears
>> there are lots of reasons for stumbling, but some people who have had the
>> severe engine cutout as I described ultimately traced it to a bad ECU or
>> Hall Sender. Is this true? Anyone have a different experience? Anyway, I am
>> concentrating my next efforts on these plus the cabling and &$#*& plug on
>> the distributor that connects the Hall Sender. Other opinions, suggestions,
>> and guesses are eagerly solicited. I am getting desperate -- at this point I
>> am even willing to replace the front bumper if there is the slightest chance
>> it could help. However, funds and patience are becoming exhausted.
>> >
>> >Are there any other tests (besides Bentley) to perform on the Hall Sender?
>> Can this thing become intermittent and still test good per Bentley? Any
>> ideas regarding the likelihood of it being the Hall Sender vs. the ECU? Is
>> there a kind soul out there in the Central Texas area with a known, good ECU
>> spare I could borrow for substitution testing with mine?
>> >
>> >I don't deserve this... really. I still have the original German air in my
>> Continental spare! I need my life and my van back. Help...
>> >
>> >John Clavin 1985 Vanagon GL Austin, TX
>>