""" 52 conversions over 4 years is pretty bad,
but from another perspective it's really good...""""

I think it's more than pretty good, on top, you need to improve and upgrade
stuff wile doing all those!

I/we did 9 Subi conversion last year, and 9 are comming. It's a lot and I
don't do much thinking.

So bravo to you and your team. I can understand the work involve.

More there is good conversions out there mean way less stock engine on the
road, and that is a very good thing for the Vanagon future. Less will go in
the scrapyard. I did over 15 stock engine re-eal / rebuilt only last year, i
hope to do as less as possible this year, for now, i have none to do for the
next.... pffff, 6 month. For me, it mean "Peace of mind" and cleaner hands :-)

Ben
ps.: sorry, i didn't read all your e-mail, to long, i'm to lazy... he he he.

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 03:05:04 -0500, Jim Akiba <syncrolist@BOSTIG.COM> wrote:

>Hmm, it's a good thing I don't take anything to heart via email,
>otherwise I'd have to say you kinda hurt my feelings in somehow
>supposing that we're "playing" rather than producing or marketing...
>although I fully understand why you might think so. It's true we
>haven't been doing much marketing recently really. I'm working on all
>the deliverables for the Bostig 2.0 revision launch which should be
>happening later this month, so it's almost time to see everything. But
>just so you don't have to speculate any longer, I'll bring you out of
>the cold and toward what's actually going on here.
>
>We've been heads down working on deliveries of the Bostig Core kits,
>and a few turnkeys here and there, but mostly a ton of development
>work has been going on.  We're refining, redefining, and improving all
>aspects of the conversion and the business itself so we can take a
>stab at seeing black in 08. 52 conversions over 4 years is pretty bad,
>but from another perspective it's really good...  and I have a certain
>aversion to selling things that offer average or below average value..
>which is actually a character flaw in business as it turns out.
>Anyhow in this grand experiment that is Bostig, we've gone from a
>couple guys with an idea that we wanted to pursue, and had to try and
>learn by ourselves how to do everything.. while it's true that I've
>been able to apply much of what I've learned previously too, the
>amount I've had to learn on top of it to even begin to make this all
>feasible easily starts to eclipse what I knew coming in... which is
>really great by itself.. it was either this, or go back to school and
>get a masters.. but this is WAY more fun, and I've learned WAY more
>than I would have pursuing a grad degree.. at least in comparison to
>friends that took the former route and casual comparison anyhow.
>Taking it from barely eaking by to stable business is nothing short of
>almost impossible, since that has to be done at the same time as all
>of the other bjillion aspects like actual production, development,
>and silly things like staying fed. The market is too small for the
>level of complexity of the product we are developing. It's simply not
>worth it from any point of view other than the challenge of trying to
>do the almost impossible.. and trying to do it really well.
>
>You're point about the other conversions having multiple vendors being
>an upside is understandable, but missing one important observation.
>From all that I've been learning and observing I think that a single
>entity, with cohesive development and direction, and more importantly
>centralized control and utilization of information will perform better
>in the environment and scope at which this market exists than
>otherwise. But it's not really important what I think. It will be for
>others to judge for themselves as they see the latest results over the
>next month or two as we roll out the Bostig 2.0 stuff. Hopefully they
>will see that both our pace of development and scope are completely
>different than the other vendors you speak of.
>
>Additionally, because we are the only ones handling all aspects within
>one brain-trust, if we were idiots it would fail horribly and
>quickly... but if we aren't idiots(which I'm still reserving judgment
>on because most of the time I'm nearly 100% sure I'm an idiot ha) then
>the output/work we do will be extraordinary in comparison with what
>else is out there, and hopefully we'll achieve new levels of
>completeness of thought since we are responsible for the entirely of
>it's development, planning, and production. For instance, when we
>first got started, I was under the impression that the other
>conversions suffered from one chief flaw from an ideological
>standpoint. I felt that they were surely missing one of the most
>important areas of attention, which was that it isn't just about
>choosing a replacement engine. It's also just as important to address
>the engine management side of things. Not only that, but you have to
>consider both at multiple stages such as pre-sale, install, and
>maintenance. You can have the greatest engine ever known to man, but
>if you have crappy old wires, or don't have control of the engine
>management to tailor strategy to serve your implementation... well it
>doesn't matter how great your engine is. If either of the two main
>areas of attention are weak at any stage, well you're only as strong
>as that weak link... that's what I thought when we first got going.
>But then I realized what I'd also missed.
>
> There is one more equally important part of the equation, which if
>left a weakness can ruin the product of any really good combination of
>the first two aspects across any of the stages as well. There aren't
>two parts across 3 stages... it isn't just engine mechanicals and
>engine management.. there are three parts. Engine mechanicals,  engine
>management, AND the operator, across all stages of involvement
>pre-sale, install, and maintenance.  The one thing lacking in a big
>way is a concerted effort to really educate and train operators, and
>provide them with the precise information they need to reduce risk,
>and improve the system as a whole... I thought we had already started
>work on the "wholistic" approach to conversions when we were the first
>guys to address engine management and try and apply the same level of
>importance as mechanicals, and regard the maintenance stage as just as
>important as the install and initial decision making stages.. but
>still we were missing that last piece. In retrospect it seems so
>obvious.. and it's honestly a bit embarrassing that we got this far
>without spotting it as the huge upside improvement potential that it
>is.. but better late than never I suppose.
>
>So in any case, in addition to the big revisions in the 2.0 from an
>electro-mechanical standpoint, from the manufacturing standpoint, and
>from the engine management standpoint, we're also now tackling in a
>big way the proper informing of the operator. In the 2.0, we are
>aiming to have each operator at the end of their builds informed with
>3 pronged information about each important aspect of a conversion, at
>each stage... that is worth knowing to reduce total risk. They will
>have the most comprehensive combination of mechanicals, management,
>and information ever assembled for a conversion... by a lot.  They
>should be able to answer, what, why, and how about everything
>important to the conversion at any stage in it's lifecycle. The
>biggest problem would be since the amount of information that needs to
>be covered by including this 3x3x3 information architecture is of
>course large... it might be lot's of time/work/money wasted if we
>weren't sure it is the right approach... but the good news is, we are
>already seeing this approach work.
>
>  The Bostig Core first install groups have really served well in that
>regard. These guys are not having problems building their own
>turnkeys, sourcing their own engines etc because they have been
>provided the right information to do so.. and compared to what will
>eventually be covered they got by on really scant information at that.
>The majority of the information deliverables are still being built...
>but I think their own apprehension about being able to do the build
>disappears, and their confidence and understanding skyrockets... these
>guys(I hope to be forced to say people eventually by having a few
>women core builders)end up really knowing and eventually understanding
>their conversions. This is something the DIY crowd is also rewarded
>with if they persevere and work both smart and hard, BUT I think the
>success rate will be much higher, and the amounts of time, money,
>effort, and risk are significantly reduced with this unified
>masterplan approach(unless the plan or execution is junk then the
>whole thing falls flat on its face ha). All of this happens while also
>increasing the quality of implementation and end results. This is
>because they simply follow the workflow, and processes laid out by all
>of the focussed development work concerted by a single vendor, which
>has also never happened before.
>
> We provide everything that makes sense to, and still handle the
>complete wiring harness build, but for the 2.0 it's designed from
>scratch for our application and built specifically to put a zetec in a
>vanagon, no re-routing, no re-pinning, a complete,custom, brand new
>harness designed and built just for this purpose(this is/was of course
>impossible at the production volumes we're talking about, until we
>actually pulled it off to prove it wasn't impossible afterall).
>
>But the addition of the 3x3x3 scoped, operator inclusive conversion...
>this is where the value really starts to grow. The whole give them a
>fish(actually sell them a fish I guess) vs. sell them the tools and
>know-how to allow them to fish like we do is a huge value compared to
>not doing so. It can make situations trivial that could otherwise be
>showstoppers. It empowers the owners and repowers the vans.. all
>vanagon nuts appreciate self sufficiency more than you're average
>bear... so why not include/address/enable that too?  I would guess
>that no other group of people are more eager to learn and embrace this
>kind of information than vanagon nuts. Some people love it so much
>they don't actually do much with it and just sit around conversing
>with other vanagon nuts about this type of information!
>
>It seems to me that not only is there value in the information that we
>pass along, but that it is actually really fun and rewarding to
>understand how this stuff works... it's not hard, it's not
>complicated... but there is a lot to it, and it has to be broken down
>for easy consumption.. something which can take enormous amounts of
>courage and effort to do without really good guidance. On top of that
>it's much more efficient to have a couple people pull together really
>thorough information and really make a point on it's accessibility vs.
>the virtual every man for himself approach.  The info might be shared,
>but it is still the case that enormous amounts of repeat work and
>re-discovery go into other approaches, that by definition alone is
>less efficient without even beginning to examine the results.
>
>So anyhow, as a payoff for reading this mess, I threw a couple links
>to some draft materials that nobody else outside Bostig and our inner
>circle have seen yet... so you guys can have a look at what we've been
>doing in our play time.  As we roll out more, and as soon as the new
>website is up and ready I'll be sure to follow-up lest Scott think
>we're just playing on a dyno all day long with our mythical
>conversions(couldn't if we wanted to, it's $100 an hour, so it's in
>and out... very focussed and not nearly as much fun as it could be,
>hey maybe that's why nobody else even bothers to use a dyno ha,  I'll
>glady sac my time and money for accuracy and real information over
>speculation any day).
>
>Jim Akiba
>
>Bostig Core master parts list current v1.0 revision(6MB)
>http://www.bostig.com/files/Bostig_Core_Master_Partslist_r2.pdf
>
>Bostig Core Cooling Sub-Kit(#2 of 7) Assembly DVD sample(115MB)
>http://www.bostig.com/files/rough_cut_SK-C.wmv
>
>Bostig 2.0 all new one-piece, 1045 steel billet flywheel
>http://www.bostig.com/files/rev2_flywheel.JPG
>http://www.bostig.com/files/rev2_flywheel_back.JPG
>
>Bostig 2.0 mounting setup CAD drawing, increases departure angle even
>with full capacity rev 2.0 wet sump, even further gains with dry sump.
>Hydraulic mounts, cradle provisioned for optional rock bars to tie
>forward and aft.
>http://www.bostig.com/files/rev2_cradle.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On 3/3/08, Scott Daniel - Shazam <scottdaniel@turbovans.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>  If you are addressing my comments , well....of course you don't get the
>>  adapter plate from any car parts dealer.
>>
>>  Nor the flywheel I imagine - though Kennedy probably sells an adapter and
>>  flywheel for that engine to a vanagon transaxle, they do that for scads of
>>  engine types, onto vw tranaxles, that's 'what they do.'  I image you could
>>  get something from them for that part.
>>
>>
>>
>>  And you could fab your own engine mounting system, exhaust system, and air
>>  filter system and so forth.
>>
>>  Must be that there's not a lot of history of people doing that.
>>
>>  It's surely doable.
>>
>>  52 kits.
>>  One could get the impression there's more 'play time' going on on the dyno
>>  than on production and marketing of kits, but that's fine !!
>>
>>  I'm sure that part is MUCH more fun.
>>
>>
>>
>>  The world low cost engine is excellent.  For sure. No doubt about it.
>>
>>  You know how some people resist Subaru in a vanagon because it's not german
>>  and Volkswagen. ? .....being very anti-American car I think I resist the
>>  'ford' aspect of it.
>>
>>       I have always sought the 'perfect' donor engine - about the right size
>>  and power, readily available, inexpensive, and durable - this would meet all
>>  of those requirements.
>>
>>  I'll bet I could sell lots of those kits.
>>
>>  Scott
>>  www.turbovans.com <http://www.turbovans.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of
>>
>> Peter Young
>>  Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 5:27 PM
>>  To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>
>> Subject: Re: Engine Conversions
>>
>>
>>
>>  True, there are several choices for Subaru conversions but this probably has
>>  to do with all the different ways to do the conversion. With the Bostig kit
>>  parts aren't really a concern because the adapter plate that enables the
>>  zetec to mate with the stock VW tranny is the only engine part that you
>>  can't get from any ol' car parts dealer. Every other component on the engine
>>  is a stock zetec engine part (except the exhaust, but again any exhaust shop
>>  worth its salt could handle that). The other benefit is that the zetec
>>  engine is a "world car" component - meaning that Ford uses it in all of the
>>  focuses, and Ford sells the focus in every market that it is in around the
>>  world. So, in theory, if you were to convert your westy into a amphibious
>>  vehicle and circumnavigate the globe in it you would be able to find parts
>>  nearly everywhere you went. Not that you would need them - according to the
>>  Bostig website, they have been trying to destroy the engine in the test
>>  vehicle for years to no avail!
>>
>>
>>
>>  I also found on the website that only 52 kits have been sold so far, which
>>  probably explains why so few people have seen one.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>  No virus found in this incoming message.
>>
>>  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>
>>  Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1308 - Release Date: 3/3/2008
>>  10:01 AM
>>
>>
>>