

| Subject: | Re: Why AGM batts don't last as long as they should |
| From: | Dennis Haynes |
| Date: | Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:00:18 -0400 |
A battery dropping to 10 volts without explanation is a sign of a bad cell. Either a cell is dried out and not producing power or shorted. Either way it needs to come out of service ASAP. The alternator is working extra hard trying to charge a 5 cell battery and localized heating can cuase the battery to burst. Yes it can happen to AGMs. It will be a dryer mess. At 6 years you have exceeded its typical life so just let go. I would suggest a normal strting battery but soemthing larger than the group 41. I believe the Diesels were equipped with group 48 as is typical for the larger Audi's and Mercedes. Dennis >From: Poppie Jagersand <poppie.jagersand@YAHOO.CA> >Reply-To: Poppie Jagersand <poppie.jagersand@YAHOO.CA> >To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >Subject: Re: Why AGM batts don't last as long as they should >Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:03:41 -0400 > >Thanks to Dennis for the (as usual) very complete and factual description >of (AGM) battery charging pitfalls. > >My personal subjective experience with Optima red top in the '82 Westy: >Its CCA capacity seems to degrade over time, while the >wetcell batteries have kept good capacity for several years, >then gone dead quickly. The optima is now 6years old, and >still works ok in the summer, but cranking voltage during >last winter was a bit marginal for the 1.9l Diesel. (It would start at >-10-15C but not below -20C. With a new battery the 1.9TD >starts down to about -30C. At that temperature the Redline MTL gear >oil is so thick that it is difficult to change gear until warmed up, and >steering >is similarly hard.) > >The Optima now also seems to self discharge a lot quicker than the equally >old >wetcell in my '95 westy. After 1 month of sitting the optima >was discharged to 10V, while the wetcell was 12.1V. External >parasite current is 10-20mA, and cannot explain this. (20e-3*24*30=14Ah >and battery is 55Ah). > >In conclusion I'm looking for something else to replace it, but haven't >found something really appealing on the Canadian market yet. >Unless I learn differently I'll probably just get another Walmart battery. >(My last Walmart battery was made by Johnson Controls, a reputable >manufacturer and also lasted 6 years.) > >Martin > >Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote: >http://batterytender.com/battery_basics.php > >This AGM battery thing has been going on for a while so I thought that I >would chime in. I have a lot of battery experience with Computer Room back >up systems, forklifts, guided vehicles etc. I have dealt with AGM >batteries up to 48 volt @ 240 A/H (6 hour rate) and flooded types, high >acid up to 48 volts and 1,250 A/H. I now spec batteries and chargers for >my companies US and Canada sites and will be doing some of Europe next >year. > >Defects aside, AGM batteries generally die from sulphation, (under >charging or stored uncharged) or the matt drying out, (overcharging, >charging too fast, or too often). Unfortunately the fix for sulphation is >overcharging so you end up in a catch 22. > >They are also temperature sensitive. Park your van in the sun and let it >get to 130F and then start the engine and blast it with 14.2 volts during >bulk. Yea, that hurts. > >Take a look at many computer room UPS installations. The electronics will >be most any where. The battery banks are usually in the air conditioned >room. > >Look at the Battery tender web site. Somewhat generic but look at the >charging curves and voltage recommendations. Battery manufacturers often >have slightly different recommendations due to different grid and plate >constructions and acid concentrations. Trojan sell 3 different flooded >style golf cart (GC-2) batteries. The T-145 is a high acid (1.325 vs. >1.285 sg. It runs and charges at slightly higher voltage. Most important >is temperature compensation. Some AGMs call for a 14.6 (2.47 v/c), volt >burst near the end of the absorption stage. Some (Trojan), say never go >above 14.1. > >Batteries can not be properly charged on fixed voltage systems. Smart >chargers can't work while power demands are constantly changing. The >voltage is a compromise. Note the usual gassing voltage of ~2.37 v/pc, >(14.2v). Charging a battery at this voltage through the bulk or high >current stage means you are localized gassing the whole time. A flooded >battery will be more tolerant but start kissing that AGM good bye. We >won't even consider Gel cells here. > >VW and most trucks use 13.8 volts, (2.3v/c). This is an ideal voltage as >it will keep a battery around 80-85% state of charge, (SOC) and not cause >any damage during extended charging such as long trips. It also stays >below the gassing limit even during the bulk charge cycle which will >always happen after engine start and when the battery is heated from >outside temps or use. Yes many cars run at 14.1 or higher but they usually >do not get 5 to 7 years of service out of a maintenance free battery. > >Now, let's talk about cycling or cycle life. A battery is really cycled >anytime it is discharged under ~ 50% and when it is fully charged. Full >charging means bringing it to the gassing or absorption part of a charge >cycle. Now if you watch a batteries voltage after charging you will see >that even with no load, the voltage will quickly fall. So now if we set >the alternator voltage to 14.2 volts or more here is what happens. After >each time the engine is turned off, the battery voltage will fall. 10% >will be gone is few hours. So long trip, stop for gas and lunch, start >engine an hour or so later and guess what. The battery will accept a bulk >charge and then go into the gas or absorption mode. Yes, you have just >taken a cycle count on your AGM. My point? You do not want to do this >frequently, especially on an AGM. The 13.8 avoids this cycle count. > >Another problem with a high fixed voltage is the batteries reaction after >charge is complete. Yu need to detect when the battery is charged by >monitoring current draw and then reduce the voltage to 13.2-13.5. > >Charging batteries is really not about voltage. It is the current that is >needed to get the job done. At the start of the charge cycle, the current >should be somewhere between 16% (preferred), to 25% of the A/H capacity. A >fixed voltage will no do this unless the wiring is undersized or the >alternator can�t keep up. Again, look at the charging curves. > >AGM Batteries can also be damaged by discharging too fast. You want to >discharge at 5 to 6 hour rate. So that 1,000 watt inverter that needs 100 >amps really needs 500 A/H of capacity to back it up. Good flooded >batteries will usually handle a 2 hour rate for a short time. > >AGM is still a technology that is being developed. The only real advantage >is the closed design which reduces spills, splashes, and maintenance. They >do offer resistance to vibration damage which makes them ideal for boats. >The down side is that they are still very expensive for what they offer >and the reliability is not where it should be. They are not tolerant of >bad charging or discharging practices and they (large ones) can not be >serviced. > >I hope some of this helps. > >Dennis > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of >Stuart MacMillan >Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:59 PM >To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >Subject: Re: Why AGM batts don't last as long as they should > >That sounds good, you'll know the battery is fully charged when it drops >to >13v. I'd still get a decent charger made to maintain Gels though for >winter >storage, and between trips. The alternator simply won't charge these >unless >it can put out 14.4 volts consistently. > >Here is the one I have: www.ctek.com I have the 3300. > >Stuart > >-----Original Message----- >From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of >Michael Diehr >Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:18 AM >To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM >Subject: Re: Why AGM batts don't last as long as they should > > > Anytime I hear of a Vanagon with a dead AGM or two, I'm curious to > > know > > what is the charging voltage at the battery terminals? If anything > > less > > than the "magic" number of 14.2 or so, an AGM is going to perform > > poorly or less than optimal. > > >I have an optima yellow top that never seemed to get charged properly >from the alternator. About a year ago I added a supplemental solar >panel (el-cheapo brand): > http://www.sunforceproducts.com/english/details.asp?id=89 > >Any idea if this charge controller is putting out enough voltage? The >manual > >http://www.sunforceproducts.com/prodinfo/manuals/SunforceSolarManEng.pdf >suggests it will charge up to 14.2 volts, and cut back in at 13 >volts. Problem solved ? > > > > > >--------------------------------- > > >Yahoo! Canada Toolbar : Search from anywhere on the web and >bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now!
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