I know its Frday and all, but keep the f*cking politics OFF THE LIST!

On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Oliver Mueller-Heubach <
groundhogging@mac.com> wrote:

> Sorry.. too many articles I've had to read for school on whether
> agriculture was a good or bad move for humans (cultural ecology,
> paleoepidemiology, etc.). What we know as non-agricultural and non-
> industrial societies today are almost entirely transformed by fallout
> from world capitalism, so hard to know what it would really be like
> (nowhere near the present conditions, though). Hunter-forager life
> would be more sustainable and there would be more gain per unit
> effort as far as food. There would be no cities, hence less disease
> threat, etc. Limited food would limit reproduction and the lions,
> tigers, and bears would do the rest... I didn't say it would ever
> work again- we are creatures of habit and comfort hounds to boot
>
> On Aug 15, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Joy Hecht wrote:
>
>  On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Oliver Mueller-Heubach <
>> groundhogging@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Depends on what classifies as a good standard of living. Without
>>> agriculture, we might be considerably better off in some ways,
>>> with more
>>> free time and better health within a certain age range.
>>>
>>>
>> Huh?  Without agriculture, what are you going to eat?  Either
>> someone else
>> grows it and you buy it, or you spend all your time growing crops.
>> Agriculture is a VERY risky business, takes a lot of time.  I don't
>> know any
>> farmers, but what I've read about being one emphasizes CONSTANT
>> work and you
>> can't ever take a break.
>>
>>
>>  We might only live to 30, but we would be closer to the earth and
>>> those
>>> around us.
>>>
>>>
>> I'll take another 60 years over that, any day!
>>
>>
>>  At least the 1/10 of a percent of the current population that could
>>> sustained without surpluses, etc. I'm not sure we're any better
>>> off than
>>> most pre-industrial civilizations (even with states, organized
>>> religions,
>>> and agriculture).
>>>
>>>
>> I work in non-industrial civilizations.  Life is damned hard.  A
>> huge amount
>> of work, and nothing to do when you aren't working except maybe
>> talk to your
>> neighbors or get drunk or have sex.  No books, no communications, no
>> electricity, no transportation.  Little or nothing in the way of
>> schools, medical care, sewage, clean drinking water.  Sex leads to
>> yet more
>> children, which makes life even harder, especially when it comes to
>> what
>> land they will inherit to live on - land doesn't multiply the way
>> children
>> do.  No privacy whatsoever living in a small village.  Basically no
>> choices.  But yeah, you are close to the earth, that's for sure.
>>
>> I'll take specialization of labor and longer life over that any
>> day!  And
>> for those who want to work on their own cars, why that's an option
>> as well,
>> in the world we live in.  Choice is a good thing.  If young folks
>> don't
>> choose to work on cars, let's cheer the fact that they can do what
>> they want
>> either way, instead of bemoaning that they don't choose what some
>> on this
>> list prefer.
>>
>>
>> Joy
>>
>
> Oliver Mueller-Heubach
> groundhogging@mac.com
>

--
Jake
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