Sorry. Diarrhea of the mouth/keyboard. Studying for doctoral exams
and guess it has me in an ornery mood. Shutting up now.

On Aug 15, 2008, at 7:57 PM, Jake de Villiers wrote:

> I know its Frday and all, but keep the f*cking politics OFF THE LIST!
>
> On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Oliver Mueller-Heubach
> <groundhogging@mac.com> wrote:
> Sorry.. too many articles I've had to read for school on whether
> agriculture was a good or bad move for humans (cultural ecology,
> paleoepidemiology, etc.). What we know as non-agricultural and non-
> industrial societies today are almost entirely transformed by fallout
> from world capitalism, so hard to know what it would really be like
> (nowhere near the present conditions, though). Hunter-forager life
> would be more sustainable and there would be more gain per unit
> effort as far as food. There would be no cities, hence less disease
> threat, etc. Limited food would limit reproduction and the lions,
> tigers, and bears would do the rest... I didn't say it would ever
> work again- we are creatures of habit and comfort hounds to boot
>
>
> On Aug 15, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Joy Hecht wrote:
>
> On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Oliver Mueller-Heubach <
> groundhogging@mac.com> wrote:
>
> Depends on what classifies as a good standard of living. Without
> agriculture, we might be considerably better off in some ways,
> with more
> free time and better health within a certain age range.
>
>
> Huh?  Without agriculture, what are you going to eat?  Either
> someone else
> grows it and you buy it, or you spend all your time growing crops.
> Agriculture is a VERY risky business, takes a lot of time.  I don't
> know any
> farmers, but what I've read about being one emphasizes CONSTANT
> work and you
> can't ever take a break.
>
>
> We might only live to 30, but we would be closer to the earth and
> those
> around us.
>
>
> I'll take another 60 years over that, any day!
>
>
> At least the 1/10 of a percent of the current population that could
> sustained without surpluses, etc. I'm not sure we're any better
> off than
> most pre-industrial civilizations (even with states, organized
> religions,
> and agriculture).
>
>
> I work in non-industrial civilizations.  Life is damned hard.  A
> huge amount
> of work, and nothing to do when you aren't working except maybe
> talk to your
> neighbors or get drunk or have sex.  No books, no communications, no
> electricity, no transportation.  Little or nothing in the way of
> schools, medical care, sewage, clean drinking water.  Sex leads to
> yet more
> children, which makes life even harder, especially when it comes to
> what
> land they will inherit to live on - land doesn't multiply the way
> children
> do.  No privacy whatsoever living in a small village.  Basically no
> choices.  But yeah, you are close to the earth, that's for sure.
>
> I'll take specialization of labor and longer life over that any
> day!  And
> for those who want to work on their own cars, why that's an option
> as well,
> in the world we live in.  Choice is a good thing.  If young folks
> don't
> choose to work on cars, let's cheer the fact that they can do what
> they want
> either way, instead of bemoaning that they don't choose what some
> on this
> list prefer.
>
>
> Joy
>
> Oliver Mueller-Heubach
> groundhogging@mac.com
>
>
>
> --
> Jake
> 1984 Vanagon GL
> 1986 Westy Weekender "Dixie"
> Crescent Beach, BC
> www.crescentbeachguitar.com
> http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27

Oliver Mueller-Heubach
groundhogging@mac.com