Sorry, but that's not politics, it's economics and anthropology. But
it's not vanagons, either.

Jim

On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 6:57 PM, Jake de Villiers
<crescentbeachguitar@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know its Frday and all, but keep the f*cking politics OFF THE LIST!
>
> On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Oliver Mueller-Heubach <
> groundhogging@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> Sorry.. too many articles I've had to read for school on whether
>> agriculture was a good or bad move for humans (cultural ecology,
>> paleoepidemiology, etc.). What we know as non-agricultural and non-
>> industrial societies today are almost entirely transformed by fallout
>> from world capitalism, so hard to know what it would really be like
>> (nowhere near the present conditions, though). Hunter-forager life
>> would be more sustainable and there would be more gain per unit
>> effort as far as food. There would be no cities, hence less disease
>> threat, etc. Limited food would limit reproduction and the lions,
>> tigers, and bears would do the rest... I didn't say it would ever
>> work again- we are creatures of habit and comfort hounds to boot
>>
>> On Aug 15, 2008, at 7:22 PM, Joy Hecht wrote:
>>
>>  On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Oliver Mueller-Heubach <
>>> groundhogging@mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Depends on what classifies as a good standard of living. Without
>>>> agriculture, we might be considerably better off in some ways,
>>>> with more
>>>> free time and better health within a certain age range.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Huh?  Without agriculture, what are you going to eat?  Either
>>> someone else
>>> grows it and you buy it, or you spend all your time growing crops.
>>> Agriculture is a VERY risky business, takes a lot of time.  I don't
>>> know any
>>> farmers, but what I've read about being one emphasizes CONSTANT
>>> work and you
>>> can't ever take a break.
>>>
>>>
>>>  We might only live to 30, but we would be closer to the earth and
>>>> those
>>>> around us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'll take another 60 years over that, any day!
>>>
>>>
>>>  At least the 1/10 of a percent of the current population that could
>>>> sustained without surpluses, etc. I'm not sure we're any better
>>>> off than
>>>> most pre-industrial civilizations (even with states, organized
>>>> religions,
>>>> and agriculture).
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I work in non-industrial civilizations.  Life is damned hard.  A
>>> huge amount
>>> of work, and nothing to do when you aren't working except maybe
>>> talk to your
>>> neighbors or get drunk or have sex.  No books, no communications, no
>>> electricity, no transportation.  Little or nothing in the way of
>>> schools, medical care, sewage, clean drinking water.  Sex leads to
>>> yet more
>>> children, which makes life even harder, especially when it comes to
>>> what
>>> land they will inherit to live on - land doesn't multiply the way
>>> children
>>> do.  No privacy whatsoever living in a small village.  Basically no
>>> choices.  But yeah, you are close to the earth, that's for sure.
>>>
>>> I'll take specialization of labor and longer life over that any
>>> day!  And
>>> for those who want to work on their own cars, why that's an option
>>> as well,
>>> in the world we live in.  Choice is a good thing.  If young folks
>>> don't
>>> choose to work on cars, let's cheer the fact that they can do what
>>> they want
>>> either way, instead of bemoaning that they don't choose what some
>>> on this
>>> list prefer.
>>>
>>>
>>> Joy
>>>
>>
>> Oliver Mueller-Heubach
>> groundhogging@mac.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jake
> 1984 Vanagon GL
> 1986 Westy Weekender "Dixie"
> Crescent Beach, BC
> www.crescentbeachguitar.com
> http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27
>