care to wager ?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Hargrave" <thargrav@HIWAAY.NET>
To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: Trying To Understand Tie rod Adjustments

> Scott,
>
> I understand - I've done enough backyard alignments. I'd never do one for
> real road use - it's just not possible to get close enough.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Hargrave
> www.kegkits.com
> http://www.kegkits.com/JABF/
> 256-656-1924
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Daniel - Turbovans [mailto:scottdaniel@turbovans.com]
> Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 3:17 PM
> To: Tom Hargrave; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Trying To Understand Tie rod Adjustments
>
> right........
> but we're not talking about 'on a rack at the alignment shop' are we ?
>
> We're talking about back yard............shade trees mechanicin'
> ...............
>
> and........I'm curious - is Neil's goal to get it good enough to drive to
> an
>
> alignment shop,
> or get it good enough for real road use ?
> I get them quite good with just back yard methods. ..
> and ................( on no ! ) no centerline reference point.
>
> ok.......trivia question.......
> name a mass-produced four door hatchback car from a Euupean car company
> .....
> with a wheel base that is shorter by a solid 3  inches or so on the right
> side, than on the left side .
> ( and if you tweak the torsion bar preloads incorrectly......you can get
> oversteer turning one direction,
> and understeer turning the other direction - lots of fun ) .
>
> Scott
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Hargrave" <thargrav@hiwaay.net>
> To: "'Scott Daniel - Turbovans'" <scottdaniel@TURBOVANS.COM>;
> <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 1:06 PM
> Subject: RE: Trying To Understand Tie rod Adjustments
>
>
>> Actually, there is a center line, or more correctly, a center plane - it
>> is
>> calculated by the machine when the car is put on the alignment rack.
>> Consider the center plane a vertical wall that goes straight through the
>> vehicle from front to back and it is at a perfect right angle to the
>> rack.
>>
>> All alignment measurements are referencing this center plane.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tom Hargrave
>> www.kegkits.com
>> http://www.kegkits.com/JABF/
>> 256-656-1924
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM] On Behalf
>> Of
>> Scott Daniel - Turbovans
>> Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 2:42 PM
>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Subject: Re: Trying To Understand Tie rod Adjustments
>>
>> all right .......
>> I'm getting what's going on perhaps .......
>> Neil for your thinking ........IF there was a 'center line' in the middle
>> of
>> the van , that you measured toe from for each front wheel.......
>> that would make perfect sense......but there isn't.
>>
>> the 'physical point' you measure from is .........each front wheel
>> relative
>> to the other.
>> you measure between the front and rear edges to get the toe reading.
>> ( which is why I wrote that 'it balances out' ...........like if you
>> start
>> out with the left wheel at zero toe, and the right one toed out say a
>> half
>> inch .........as soon as you drive 6 feet.........they'll balance out (
>> and
>> the steering wheel will move left some in this case ) ........
>> so you'll be driving down the road.........going straight, and with a
>> half
>> inch of toe out , measured from wheel to wheel in front.
>>
>> here's how I measure toe......
>> suspension must be settled of course.
>> using two yard sticks..........measure the distance between the two front
>> wheels.........as close to the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions as you
>> can
>> get.
>> I measure on the tire itself...........on a smooth spot , like no letters
>> or
>> bumps.
>> Measuring on the wheel rim is OK.........but, the further you get from
>> the
>> center of the wheel, the more accurate your measurements will be.
>>
>> supposing you had a 10 foot long 2 X 4 mounted on each spindle perfectly
>> .....so that they extended 5 feet for and aft from each spindle.
>> then you measure toe by comparing the distance between the two ends of
>> the
>
>> 2
>> X 4's way out in front......
>> then at the rear of the 2 X 4's .......this of course would be far more
>> accurate, since the 2 X 4's magnify things.
>>
>> but that's not too practical.
>> I just measure at the tires.......from side to side..........at the front
>> of
>> the tires, and at the rear......
>> aiming for about 1/16ths to 1/8th inch toe in, measured at the tires.
>>
>> hope this helps some !~
>> Scott
>> www.turbovans.com
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "neil N" <musomuso@gmail.com>
>> To: "Scott Daniel - Turbovans" <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>
>> Cc: <vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 11:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: Trying To Understand Tie rod Adjustments
>>
>>
>>> 2009/4/11 Scott Daniel - Turbovans <scottdaniel@turbovans.com>:
>>>> I meant to also say .....
>>>> for a base steering wheel being centered place to start -
>>>> remove the key, and let the steering lock with the steering wheel
>>>> centered.
>>>> then try to get toe and camber right ,
>>>> and i ...
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks Tom and Scott.
>>>
>>> I'm starting to understand more. And I was right in thinking that a
>>> wheel could be toed in or out independantly of the other. So with that
>>> in mind....
>>>
>>> A point of confusion remains. (and this may not be the problem, but I
>>> suspect it is due to swap of a tie rod)
>>>
>>> Let's way the left wheel is 0 toe, but the right wheel is x degrees
>>> toe out.  How do I get the right wheel to 0 so I can set the correct
>>> amount of toe in? i.e. what physical point do I measure from to set
>>> the toed out wheel straight?
>>>
>>> Neil.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Neil Nicholson '81 VanaJetta 2.0 "Jaco"
>>>
>>> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>>>
>>>
>>
> http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engine
>> s
>>
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