I'm with Jeff.  If an 'improved' head with better valves and tweaked keepers
is only $100 more than an AMC head that is good for ~30,000 miles, why would
I want to cheap out?

The labour to re & re the head that swallowed a valve will be at least
$1000, you and they'll want to check the other side too that's $2000 plus
towing etc.

Why wouldn't you want to do it right the first time?  I know which shop I'd
get my heads replaced at - the one that does the best job *ONCE*!

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Jeff <vw.doka@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ken,
>
> Actually, the wholesale cost of a bare (no valves, springs or keepers) AMC
> head is substantially below $300, so a $499 "upgraded" head is easily
> doable.
>
> Even the wholesale cost of a complete AMC head is below your example below
> of $389.
>
> As for valves... wholesale cost of "better" exhaust valves is less than
> $25,
> intakes are less than $10.  When I say "better", I'm referring to TRW
> valves
> that are made in Germany.
>
> And these are my prices.  A large company that purchases in bulk will get
> much better pricing.
>
>
> One thing that we commonly do is to reuse the original VW valves (if they
> are within specifications) on new AMC heads.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Wilford [mailto:kenwilfy@comcast.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: VW Doka
> Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob
>
> Jeff,
> OK, let's pretend that you are going to replace your exhaust valves with
> "better" ones that are around $35 each.  This is just exhaust valves
> however there are two of these per head ($70) then you are going to want
> to use "better" intake valves which run around $20 each ($40 per head).
> So just in valves you are talking about adding $110 in cost per head.
> Now look at what folks are charging for the heads with the "better"
> valves.  A certain company who shall remain nameless is selling their
> "better" valve heads for $499 each.  This would mean that they would
> have to buy their heads at $389 each just to break even (not making any
> money and not factoring in their labor).  The heads just aren't this
> cheap.  Even if they could get the heads for $300 (way below what anyone
> can actually get them for wholesale) you are talking about only making
> $89 per head which wouldn't be worth it.  That might cover your labor in
> removing, installing and lapping the valves but that is it.  No profit.
> The math just doesn't work.  The only way it works out is if you take
> the AMC valves out and put something else in that is relatively cheap.
> I know one particular rebuilder who shall remain nameless who was
> replacing the AMC valves with aftermarket stainless ones that he could
> get pretty cheaply.  This was working well for him for a while until he
> ran into a bad batch of these aftermarket valves that had improperly
> heat treated stems and had valves start failing on him.  So the very
> "problem" that he was supposed to be fixing by replacing the valves was
> the thing that started happening.  Ironic, isn't it?
>
> So if people wanted to pay a premium for heads with OE valves installed
> I would have no problem with that.  People can pay a premium to get
> premium valves.  However when a company says their heads are better when
> they are putting in aftermarket valves which may or may not be any
> better than what they are replacing I just don't think this is right.
> Just my opinion.
>
> Ken Wilford
> John 3:16
> www.vanagain.com
>
> VW Doka wrote:
> > >From my experience, they start to show significant valve stem wear
> > around 20k miles.  Failure around 40k miles.
> >
> > The bad batch story is just that... a story.  The AMC heads sold today
> > still use the same cheap, crappy exhaust valves as the ones from 5
> > years ago.  You can buy the same valves brand new for about $7.  A
> > good exhaust valve for the WBXer runs about $35.
> >
> > Not conjecture, not really opinion... just my experience.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Robert Keezer <warmerwagen@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Very logical . After all, how would a company like this stay in business
> year after year with notoriously bad valves?
> >>  It just did'nt make sense.
> >>
> >> I think Kens' answer is reasonable fro me to go by.
> >>
> >> One bad batch has perpetuated this myth all these years. I  never
> believed it .
> >>
> >> Most of my Vanagons sold with AMC heads and never a complaint.
> >> Which is why I asked, how long do they last? This bad batch head?
> >>
> >> If they went bad in 5 years, I would'nt expect to hear from the buyer .
> >> One year or less maybe . Less than 6 months probably.
> >>
> >> Robert
> >> 1982 Westfalia
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
> >> Subject: Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob
> >> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> >> Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 12:18 PM
> >>
> >>
> >> I spent a bunch of time on the phone with Bob talking about this subject
> >> as well, but I believe all of this fear and loathing about the AMC
> >> valves is due to a bad batch of these heads back about 6 or 7 years
> >> ago.  I have never had a failure like the one Bob always warned me about
> >> and I never changed the valves from the stock ones.  Recently I had a
> >> pair of AMC heads that I installed on an engine about two years ago come
> >> back into my possession (engine threw a rod).  The heads had about 18k
> >> miles on them.  I took the heads to a machine shop to have them checked
> >> and a valve job done before selling the heads to a list member.  I asked
> >> the machine shop about the condition of the valve keepers, grooves on
> >> the valve stems, etc.  He said that he had inspected them and they were
> >> like new condition and that they valves themselves were also in like new
> >> condition.  I can say that I have never had an AMC head fail in 11 years
> >> of installing them.  I have never had one that I have sold to a customer
> >> fail due to a bad valve either.  Anything can fail if you abuse it, or
> >> improperly install it, or don't correctly adjust the valves, etc.
> >> However I have never found the stock AMC valves to have any issues.  If
> >> you want to spend extra money on "better" valves and install them only
> >> to have them fail (I have known this to happen) that is your choice.
> >> However the stigma against using the AMC heads out of the box is totally
> >> unfounded as far as I am concerned.
> >>
> >> Just my experience,
> >> Ken Wilford
> >> John 3:16
> >> www.vanagain.com
> >>
> >>
> >> Zoltan wrote:
> >>
> >>> One important fact I learned from Bob, was that the AMC heads have
> loose
> keepers.  The two halves meet each other to touch, thus grabbing the valve
> stem, being loose, they travel up and down until they break through the
> grooves and the valve free to move deeper inside and then operated by the
> piston to have it pushed up.
> >>> So, the first thing I recomment to anyone I meet is to have the keepers
> ground at their sides until they don't touch each other.
> >>> Bob was very happy with the AMC heads and tossed the old ones for their
> metal fatigue.  In his experience, it was not worth chancing all the
> troubles by putting the old ones back.
> >>> He liked the better material the AMC heads are made of.
> >>> So, the keepers must be fixed first.
> >>> Zoltan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

--
Jake

1984 Vanagon GL
1986 Westy Weekender "Dixie"

Crescent Beach, BC

www.thebassspa.com
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27