Jake, I am with you on this one.  I have done many, many head gasket
replacements and head replacements over the years.  I don't know the
exact number but it is well over 50 at this point (maybe over 100 I
don't know).  I have used the AMC heads exclusively for the past 11
years.  Out of all of those jobs I have never had one come back due to a
bad valve.  Actually out of all of those jobs I have only ever had to
redo one and that was at the very beginning of my business and due to a
bad spot on the case that I didn't properly address (live and learn).
Beside that I have never had a head gasket or head replacement job ever
come back or have a problem that I know of.  That is a pretty good track
record.  I am a small shop, I hate returns way worse that you ever could
since I do this job many times a year not just once.  If I thought for a
moment that this was a problem I would change the valves myself so that
I could avoid a come back.  It just has never happened so I don't feel
like treating a disease that doesn't exist.  I am just sharing my
experience here.

Ken Wilford
John 3:16
www.vanagain.com

Jake de Villiers wrote:
> I'm with Jeff.  If an 'improved' head with better valves and tweaked keepers
> is only $100 more than an AMC head that is good for ~30,000 miles, why would
> I want to cheap out?
>
> The labour to re & re the head that swallowed a valve will be at least
> $1000, you and they'll want to check the other side too that's $2000 plus
> towing etc.
>
> Why wouldn't you want to do it right the first time?  I know which shop I'd
> get my heads replaced at - the one that does the best job *ONCE*!
>
> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Jeff <vw.doka@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Ken,
>>
>> Actually, the wholesale cost of a bare (no valves, springs or keepers) AMC
>> head is substantially below $300, so a $499 "upgraded" head is easily
>> doable.
>>
>> Even the wholesale cost of a complete AMC head is below your example below
>> of $389.
>>
>> As for valves... wholesale cost of "better" exhaust valves is less than
>> $25,
>> intakes are less than $10.  When I say "better", I'm referring to TRW
>> valves
>> that are made in Germany.
>>
>> And these are my prices.  A large company that purchases in bulk will get
>> much better pricing.
>>
>>
>> One thing that we commonly do is to reuse the original VW valves (if they
>> are within specifications) on new AMC heads.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ken Wilford [mailto:kenwilfy@comcast.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:32 PM
>> To: VW Doka
>> Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>> Subject: Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob
>>
>> Jeff,
>> OK, let's pretend that you are going to replace your exhaust valves with
>> "better" ones that are around $35 each.  This is just exhaust valves
>> however there are two of these per head ($70) then you are going to want
>> to use "better" intake valves which run around $20 each ($40 per head).
>> So just in valves you are talking about adding $110 in cost per head.
>> Now look at what folks are charging for the heads with the "better"
>> valves.  A certain company who shall remain nameless is selling their
>> "better" valve heads for $499 each.  This would mean that they would
>> have to buy their heads at $389 each just to break even (not making any
>> money and not factoring in their labor).  The heads just aren't this
>> cheap.  Even if they could get the heads for $300 (way below what anyone
>> can actually get them for wholesale) you are talking about only making
>> $89 per head which wouldn't be worth it.  That might cover your labor in
>> removing, installing and lapping the valves but that is it.  No profit.
>> The math just doesn't work.  The only way it works out is if you take
>> the AMC valves out and put something else in that is relatively cheap.
>> I know one particular rebuilder who shall remain nameless who was
>> replacing the AMC valves with aftermarket stainless ones that he could
>> get pretty cheaply.  This was working well for him for a while until he
>> ran into a bad batch of these aftermarket valves that had improperly
>> heat treated stems and had valves start failing on him.  So the very
>> "problem" that he was supposed to be fixing by replacing the valves was
>> the thing that started happening.  Ironic, isn't it?
>>
>> So if people wanted to pay a premium for heads with OE valves installed
>> I would have no problem with that.  People can pay a premium to get
>> premium valves.  However when a company says their heads are better when
>> they are putting in aftermarket valves which may or may not be any
>> better than what they are replacing I just don't think this is right.
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> Ken Wilford
>> John 3:16
>> www.vanagain.com
>>
>> VW Doka wrote:
>>
>>> >From my experience, they start to show significant valve stem wear
>>> around 20k miles.  Failure around 40k miles.
>>>
>>> The bad batch story is just that... a story.  The AMC heads sold today
>>> still use the same cheap, crappy exhaust valves as the ones from 5
>>> years ago.  You can buy the same valves brand new for about $7.  A
>>> good exhaust valve for the WBXer runs about $35.
>>>
>>> Not conjecture, not really opinion... just my experience.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Robert Keezer <warmerwagen@yahoo.com>
>>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Very logical . After all, how would a company like this stay in business
>>>>
>> year after year with notoriously bad valves?
>>
>>>>  It just did'nt make sense.
>>>>
>>>> I think Kens' answer is reasonable fro me to go by.
>>>>
>>>> One bad batch has perpetuated this myth all these years. I  never
>>>>
>> believed it .
>>
>>>> Most of my Vanagons sold with AMC heads and never a complaint.
>>>> Which is why I asked, how long do they last? This bad batch head?
>>>>
>>>> If they went bad in 5 years, I would'nt expect to hear from the buyer .
>>>> One year or less maybe . Less than 6 months probably.
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>> 1982 Westfalia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
>>>> Subject: Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob
>>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>>> Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 12:18 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I spent a bunch of time on the phone with Bob talking about this subject
>>>> as well, but I believe all of this fear and loathing about the AMC
>>>> valves is due to a bad batch of these heads back about 6 or 7 years
>>>> ago.  I have never had a failure like the one Bob always warned me about
>>>> and I never changed the valves from the stock ones.  Recently I had a
>>>> pair of AMC heads that I installed on an engine about two years ago come
>>>> back into my possession (engine threw a rod).  The heads had about 18k
>>>> miles on them.  I took the heads to a machine shop to have them checked
>>>> and a valve job done before selling the heads to a list member.  I asked
>>>> the machine shop about the condition of the valve keepers, grooves on
>>>> the valve stems, etc.  He said that he had inspected them and they were
>>>> like new condition and that they valves themselves were also in like new
>>>> condition.  I can say that I have never had an AMC head fail in 11 years
>>>> of installing them.  I have never had one that I have sold to a customer
>>>> fail due to a bad valve either.  Anything can fail if you abuse it, or
>>>> improperly install it, or don't correctly adjust the valves, etc.
>>>> However I have never found the stock AMC valves to have any issues.  If
>>>> you want to spend extra money on "better" valves and install them only
>>>> to have them fail (I have known this to happen) that is your choice.
>>>> However the stigma against using the AMC heads out of the box is totally
>>>> unfounded as far as I am concerned.
>>>>
>>>> Just my experience,
>>>> Ken Wilford
>>>> John 3:16
>>>> www.vanagain.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Zoltan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> One important fact I learned from Bob, was that the AMC heads have
>>>>>
>> loose
>> keepers.  The two halves meet each other to touch, thus grabbing the valve
>> stem, being loose, they travel up and down until they break through the
>> grooves and the valve free to move deeper inside and then operated by the
>> piston to have it pushed up.
>>
>>>>> So, the first thing I recomment to anyone I meet is to have the keepers
>>>>>
>> ground at their sides until they don't touch each other.
>>
>>>>> Bob was very happy with the AMC heads and tossed the old ones for their
>>>>>
>> metal fatigue.  In his experience, it was not worth chancing all the
>> troubles by putting the old ones back.
>>
>>>>> He liked the better material the AMC heads are made of.
>>>>> So, the keepers must be fixed first.
>>>>> Zoltan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jake
>
> 1984 Vanagon GL
> 1986 Westy Weekender "Dixie"
>
> Crescent Beach, BC
>
> www.thebassspa.com
> www.crescentbeachguitar.com
> http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27
>
>