"Doesn't exist"??  That pile of scrap AMC heads that I took the
recycler must've been a mirage...

Perhaps it's a "west coast" thing...

Jeff

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@comcast.net> wrote:
> Jake, I am with you on this one. �I have done many, many head gasket
> replacements and head replacements over the years. �I don't know the
> exact number but it is well over 50 at this point (maybe over 100 I
> don't know). �I have used the AMC heads exclusively for the past 11
> years. �Out of all of those jobs I have never had one come back due to a
> bad valve. �Actually out of all of those jobs I have only ever had to
> redo one and that was at the very beginning of my business and due to a
> bad spot on the case that I didn't properly address (live and learn).
> Beside that I have never had a head gasket or head replacement job ever
> come back or have a problem that I know of. �That is a pretty good track
> record. �I am a small shop, I hate returns way worse that you ever could
> since I do this job many times a year not just once. �If I thought for a
> moment that this was a problem I would change the valves myself so that
> I could avoid a come back. �It just has never happened so I don't feel
> like treating a disease that doesn't exist. �I am just sharing my
> experience here.
>
> Ken Wilford
> John 3:16
> www.vanagain.com
>
>
> Jake de Villiers wrote:
>>
>> I'm with Jeff. �If an 'improved' head with better valves and tweaked
>> keepers
>> is only $100 more than an AMC head that is good for ~30,000 miles, why
>> would
>> I want to cheap out?
>>
>> The labour to re & re the head that swallowed a valve will be at least
>> $1000, you and they'll want to check the other side too that's $2000 plus
>> towing etc.
>>
>> Why wouldn't you want to do it right the first time? �I know which shop
>> I'd
>> get my heads replaced at - the one that does the best job *ONCE*!
>>
>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Jeff <vw.doka@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Ken,
>>>
>>> Actually, the wholesale cost of a bare (no valves, springs or keepers)
>>> AMC
>>> head is substantially below $300, so a $499 "upgraded" head is easily
>>> doable.
>>>
>>> Even the wholesale cost of a complete AMC head is below your example
>>> below
>>> of $389.
>>>
>>> As for valves... wholesale cost of "better" exhaust valves is less than
>>> $25,
>>> intakes are less than $10. �When I say "better", I'm referring to TRW
>>> valves
>>> that are made in Germany.
>>>
>>> And these are my prices. �A large company that purchases in bulk will get
>>> much better pricing.
>>>
>>>
>>> One thing that we commonly do is to reuse the original VW valves (if they
>>> are within specifications) on new AMC heads.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ken Wilford [mailto:kenwilfy@comcast.net]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:32 PM
>>> To: VW Doka
>>> Cc: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>> Subject: Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob
>>>
>>> Jeff,
>>> OK, let's pretend that you are going to replace your exhaust valves with
>>> "better" ones that are around $35 each. �This is just exhaust valves
>>> however there are two of these per head ($70) then you are going to want
>>> to use "better" intake valves which run around $20 each ($40 per head).
>>> So just in valves you are talking about adding $110 in cost per head.
>>> Now look at what folks are charging for the heads with the "better"
>>> valves. �A certain company who shall remain nameless is selling their
>>> "better" valve heads for $499 each. �This would mean that they would
>>> have to buy their heads at $389 each just to break even (not making any
>>> money and not factoring in their labor). �The heads just aren't this
>>> cheap. �Even if they could get the heads for $300 (way below what anyone
>>> can actually get them for wholesale) you are talking about only making
>>> $89 per head which wouldn't be worth it. �That might cover your labor in
>>> removing, installing and lapping the valves but that is it. �No profit.
>>> The math just doesn't work. �The only way it works out is if you take
>>> the AMC valves out and put something else in that is relatively cheap.
>>> I know one particular rebuilder who shall remain nameless who was
>>> replacing the AMC valves with aftermarket stainless ones that he could
>>> get pretty cheaply. �This was working well for him for a while until he
>>> ran into a bad batch of these aftermarket valves that had improperly
>>> heat treated stems and had valves start failing on him. �So the very
>>> "problem" that he was supposed to be fixing by replacing the valves was
>>> the thing that started happening. �Ironic, isn't it?
>>>
>>> So if people wanted to pay a premium for heads with OE valves installed
>>> I would have no problem with that. �People can pay a premium to get
>>> premium valves. �However when a company says their heads are better when
>>> they are putting in aftermarket valves which may or may not be any
>>> better than what they are replacing I just don't think this is right.
>>> Just my opinion.
>>>
>>> Ken Wilford
>>> John 3:16
>>> www.vanagain.com
>>>
>>> VW Doka wrote:
>>>
>>>> >From my experience, they start to show significant valve stem wear
>>>> around 20k miles. �Failure around 40k miles.
>>>>
>>>> The bad batch story is just that... a story. �The AMC heads sold today
>>>> still use the same cheap, crappy exhaust valves as the ones from 5
>>>> years ago. �You can buy the same valves brand new for about $7. �A
>>>> good exhaust valve for the WBXer runs about $35.
>>>>
>>>> Not conjecture, not really opinion... just my experience.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Robert Keezer <warmerwagen@yahoo.com>
>>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Very logical . After all, how would a company like this stay in
>>>>> business
>>>>>
>>> year after year with notoriously bad valves?
>>>
>>>>> �It just did'nt make sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think Kens' answer is reasonable fro me to go by.
>>>>>
>>>>> One bad batch has perpetuated this myth all these years. I �never
>>>>>
>>> believed it .
>>>
>>>>> Most of my Vanagons sold with AMC heads and never a complaint.
>>>>> Which is why I asked, how long do they last? This bad batch head?
>>>>>
>>>>> If they went bad in 5 years, I would'nt expect to hear from the buyer .
>>>>> One year or less maybe . Less than 6 months probably.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>> 1982 Westfalia
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Ken Wilford <kenwilfy@COMCAST.NET>
>>>>> Subject: Re: AMC valves, Boston Bob
>>>>> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
>>>>> Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 12:18 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I spent a bunch of time on the phone with Bob talking about this
>>>>> subject
>>>>> as well, but I believe all of this fear and loathing about the AMC
>>>>> valves is due to a bad batch of these heads back about 6 or 7 years
>>>>> ago. �I have never had a failure like the one Bob always warned me
>>>>> about
>>>>> and I never changed the valves from the stock ones. �Recently I had a
>>>>> pair of AMC heads that I installed on an engine about two years ago
>>>>> come
>>>>> back into my possession (engine threw a rod). �The heads had about 18k
>>>>> miles on them. �I took the heads to a machine shop to have them checked
>>>>> and a valve job done before selling the heads to a list member. �I
>>>>> asked
>>>>> the machine shop about the condition of the valve keepers, grooves on
>>>>> the valve stems, etc. �He said that he had inspected them and they were
>>>>> like new condition and that they valves themselves were also in like
>>>>> new
>>>>> condition. �I can say that I have never had an AMC head fail in 11
>>>>> years
>>>>> of installing them. �I have never had one that I have sold to a
>>>>> customer
>>>>> fail due to a bad valve either. �Anything can fail if you abuse it, or
>>>>> improperly install it, or don't correctly adjust the valves, etc.
>>>>> However I have never found the stock AMC valves to have any issues. �If
>>>>> you want to spend extra money on "better" valves and install them only
>>>>> to have them fail (I have known this to happen) that is your choice.
>>>>> However the stigma against using the AMC heads out of the box is
>>>>> totally
>>>>> unfounded as far as I am concerned.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my experience,
>>>>> Ken Wilford
>>>>> John 3:16
>>>>> www.vanagain.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Zoltan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> One important fact I learned from Bob, was that the AMC heads have
>>>>>>
>>> loose
>>> keepers. �The two halves meet each other to touch, thus grabbing the
>>> valve
>>> stem, being loose, they travel up and down until they break through the
>>> grooves and the valve free to move deeper inside and then operated by the
>>> piston to have it pushed up.
>>>
>>>>>> So, the first thing I recomment to anyone I meet is to have the
>>>>>> keepers
>>>>>>
>>> ground at their sides until they don't touch each other.
>>>
>>>>>> Bob was very happy with the AMC heads and tossed the old ones for
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>
>>> metal fatigue. �In his experience, it was not worth chancing all the
>>> troubles by putting the old ones back.
>>>
>>>>>> He liked the better material the AMC heads are made of.
>>>>>> So, the keepers must be fixed first.
>>>>>> Zoltan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jake
>>
>> 1984 Vanagon GL
>> 1986 Westy Weekender "Dixie"
>>
>> Crescent Beach, BC
>>
>> www.thebassspa.com
>> www.crescentbeachguitar.com
>> http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27
>>
>>
>