Daryl,

So good to know that the baiting-the-bear approach works! Your comments are very helpful, but I want to press a little further.

As I try to visualize the SA plates I think of a sort of crank scraper to a gear cluster taking the thick oil sheet traveling around the rotating cluster and redirecting it towards the 3/4 gear group. Is this anywhere near the mark?

What I really had in mind was fabricating an injection rail with oil ports sending cooled oil to various areas of the gear cluster. I had hoped that a trans guru (just drawing his thoughts to the matter during a coffee break) could advise a possible geometry entering the oil fill port. I had in mind a heavy wall (stiff) injector that might be aligned parallel to the cluster and a dog-leg on the end so it could be rotated after insertion to a fixed point against the top of the case, then tightened in place. I had hoped such a thing could be made and safely inserted without having to open the case and thereby have to breakout labor-intensive rework (alignment). Is this a possibility? Or is the interior of the case just 10# of metal stuffed in a 5# box?

Thanks for the Swepco recommendation,

Your turn,

Frank Grunthaner

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Daryl Christensen <daryl@aatransaxle.com>
To: frankgrun@AOL.COM; vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Sent: Tue, Jan 5, 2010 8:12 pm
Subject: RE:   Now Vanagon TDi Transmission  Survival Strategy

Well done Frank...Ya got my attention.
The word of the day is Oiling Plates...They go both in the main case beside the 
ring gear and in the gear housing by 3rd/4th to redirect the splash oiling 
towards the pinion and M/S bearings to force feed any splash oil to where it 
will do some good. Designed, I assume, by the S.A. guys to gain an extra 80 Nm ( 
? 75HP? ) of "safe" additional power according to the Euro guys I have talked 
to.

I agree that cooling is key and have no problem with an external cooler, but for 
most, its out of reach due to the fabrication necessary.

Using the proper tranny oil can make ALL the difference and is an easy "fix"..
I suggest Swepco 201 or 203 racing oil for a TDi or a 3.3 SVX conversion. I have 
seen several rigs that were driven hard and put away wet that ruined the R&P's 
after less than 2 yrs. They were using a lighter gear oil (maybe even Redline) 
that didn't hold up to the stress and torque of the 200 + HP with these heavy 
rigs we drive.
For those with stockish vans or very cold temps, Redline works just fine. Still 
change it every couple years though to be on the safe side..( or so as not to 
have to deal with the likes of me...)

During a rebuild, we constantly see looseness of components as the cases get 
tired. Bad bearings peen the magnesium alloy metal and cause the bores to 
expand. Rebushing cases and other parts also tightens up the tolerances and slop 
that wears gears and shafts. The closer to factory specs, the longer it will 
wear correctly and tolerate big horsey power...
No personal experience with the Cryo or bead blasting stuff, so no help there.
Tag your it Frank..
Daryl of AA Transaxle
425-788-4070
"On the cutting edge of Old technology"

-----Original Message-----
From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On Behalf Of Frank 
Grunthaner
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 7:08 PM
To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
Subject: Re: Conversion? JETTA ENGINE?? Now Vanagon TDi Transmission Survival 
Strategy

 Don,

Couldn't agree more with your comments. I have always viewed the SA drip plates 
as a stopgap or bandaid strategy. There are obviously some strength of materials 
issues. The use of different alloy materials in aftermarket gears; bead-blasting 
for stress relief and cryo treatments all serve to move the failure point to the 
next weakest component. For continuous use the real enemy is heat and cooling of 
the transmission lubricant is a definite solution, as I indicated in that 
lengthy post.

But a few more comments are possibly warranted. On the subject of bead blasting 
and stress relief. The actual mechanism (of the bead-blasting effect) includes a 
level of local surface annealing along with the generation of a whole collage of 
micro fissures or cracks. Seen on the microscopic scale, the net effect is to 
make the the top several hundred microns of the part into a poly crystalline 
matrix. Consequently there are no well defined macro stress lines to lead to 
simple fracture propagation. In essence, micro faults can open and close without 
opening a break all the way through the part cross-section. If cryo-treatment is 
done correctly, the part is first heated to a softening temperature, then 
quenched in liquid nitrogen. The net effect is to amorphize the surface region. 
This essentially randomizes the metal unit cell and makes the surface harder 
than any crystalline equivalent. Done incorrectly, the cryo-treatment can give 
very large stresses that can give a shattered part when subjected to use stress. 

I'm almost convinced that the design of the vanagon transmission with the 4.57 
or 4.83 R&P, updated 3/4 slider and beadblasted 3/4 gearsets can handle the TDi 
torque load with temperature control. Start/stop stress is nicely handled by the 
4 spyder gear mod to the differential carrier. The additional weak points of the 
pinion bearing and the needle bearings may well be adequate with thermally 
controlled lubrication. In my approach, I intend to pick up lubricant at the oil 
drain plug, draw it out and through an inline particle filter to the 12v 
gearpump, then send the liquid to the oil cooler (fan driven air-to-liquid) and 
then a return to the filler hole in the case. I'm using an Audi squirrel-cage 
injector cooling fan  for moving air to the oil cooler (also taken from my 
collection of Audi 5000T parts). The oil filler hole is not angled perpendicular 
to the gear cluster, but rather is pointed towards the bellhousing at roughly 
45˚ to the gear cluster. The clearance around the fill port is rather tight. 
Nonetheless, I'm wondering if a modest nozzle forming aperture directed back at 
the pinion needle bearing and 3/4 cluster area might not be advantageous? In 
other words, would a directed fluid jet increase the lubricity and fluid 
exchange in the gear cluster above and beyond the level achieved by the 30% 
level of gear immersion? I'm also wondering about the oil level in the case at 
speed. In other words, does the apparent oil level at the fill port decrease 
when the vehicle is at speed wrapping around the gear cluster. This is important 
for sizing the possible oil jet diameter and for determining the recirculation 
rate - while staying away from cavitation or aerosol formation.

Finally, the character of the lubricant could seriously help here. The new 
designer synthetic lubricants add several desirable properties to the problem. 
First, they can maintain a low and uniform viscosity over a very broad range of 
temperatures. Secondly, they conduct heat from metal interfaces much more 
effectively that the older petroleum formulations. This means lower gear surface 
temperatures and better heat transfer at the lube-to-metal-to-air interface in 
the oil cooler. Third, they wet the metal gear surface more effectively 
maintaining film adhesion under much higher contact pressures and shear forces. 
Lastly, the molecular film drag is considerably reduced as compared to 
traditional fluids. The LAT synthetic 75W140 synthetic racing gear oil seems to 
be the current latest word for high shock pulse loads in differentials. Yet, 
most manufacturers of synthetic racing gear oils do not recommend their use in 
VW transaxle--WHY?

Questions, questions! I had hoped to provoke a response and discussion with 
Daryll and/or other transmission professionals. Alistair recently brought to my 
attention this excellent website on a Syncro Project (http://vanagonsyncroproject-herman.blogspot.com/). 
Here Herman shows his transmission solution, but I'm reluctant to tear open the 
transmission again. Fascinating approaches! Excellent reading.

Frank Grunthaner

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Hanson <dhanson928@gmail.com>
To: TDI-conversion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Jan 4, 2010 7:11 am
Subject: Re: [TDI-conversion] Re: Conversion? JETTA ENGINE?? Now Some TDi  
Comments (Shortened Version)

  
    
                  

Scott, Frank
 
  Here are a couple of ideas on helping a tranny stay alive when you are feeding 
it big torque.
 
Keeping the internal temp down seems critical.  A positive flow transmission 
cooling system is beneficial.  A good source for the components and plumbing 
parts to fabricate one might be here:
http://www.batinc.net/porsche.htm
  Go back to the BAT homepage for a huge selection of hydraulic fittings, hoses, 
etc.  No personal affiliation with BAT other than I used them when fabricating a 
system for my big torque stroker V8 Porsche racecar transmission.
  With some careful planning you'll be able to safely keep the operating temps 
of your trans axle within acceptable limits.  I was told the repeated failures I 
saw, until I addressed the problem,  were caused partially because, as the trans 
axle gained excessive heat, the internal tolerances changed, generating further 
heat ...creating a bad situation..  I say you must use "careful planning" for a 
tans axle cooling system..It should be designed and executed so that if any of 
the extra components (hoses, pumps, wiring, sensors, switches, etc) should fail, 
the transmission will revert to it's  'un-cooled'  state, rather than become 
unlubricated..
 
  I was able to configure the system on my 928 trans using the filler and drain 
openings.  Seems like this might be a viable approach for most trannys and a way 
to work up a cooler system without extensive machine work on the transmission 
cases.. 
 
You might also, should you have your tranny apart, consider having the internals 
cryogenic-ally treated.  I am told this is similar in results to bead blasting 
(it is supposed to reduce 'internal stress' in the part that is 'super-cooled')  
and the process is fairly rea$onable and quick.  I was told all the NASCAR teams 
do this routinely, so on my final transmission ( before I ran out of spendable 
income and ceased racing my big sporty car) I had my internals cryogenic ally 
treated.  With good cooling and perhaps that cryo-treatment, I was able to race 
a full season without another failure of my gears..Cryogenics might be BS, but 
the cost was comparatively little in my racing budget so I did it and I'd do it 
again for a high-torque application.
 
  Running a Vanagon at sustained higher speeds against a headwind/uphill or with 
a big load...in combo with extra power..it will create more heat in the 
gears...If and when the internals become excessively hot the various components 
expand, often at different rates, causing even more friction, which in turn 
causes even more heat...Better to spend a few hundred on keeping things cool, if 
you are running a power train that might push the design limits of your tranny.
 
  Don Hanson
  
 
 Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:42 AM, Scott Greiner <greines@yahoo.com> wrote:

  

Frank,
Thank you for your time and thorough details. If you are ever in the Phx, AZ 
area, let me know! Dinner and Drinks are on me.
 
 
 
Scott Greiner
Mesa, AZ
1982 Diesel Westy-With a 1997 Jetta AHU 1.9 TDI
DZ Transaxle Re-Built with a 3rd 1.14, 4th .70 & a 4.57 R&P by AZTransaxles in 
Phx, AZ - Thanks Bill
Engine Left Mount - "To clear the Turbo", Viton Fuel Line Kit & VS Sensor, etc 
from GreaseWorks- Thanks Justin; great website!!
R&R of 1997 Jetta TDI Donor Car's Engine, ECU, Wire harness, intercooler, 
rebuilting the turbo, in to my 82 Diesel Westy- Thanks Paul my friend & 
neighbor.
Exhaust System - Stock 1997 Jetta's Header pipe with 4" high flow muffler form 
local shop.
Misc parts, thanks BAP, PartsPlace Inc., Carl's VW Speed Shop, Autohaus
South Bend Clutch Inc - Thanks Andy for the 228mm Clutch Plate
Air Cleaner - K&N from Pep-Boys
Intercooler Piping Fabrication by my friend Mark-Thanks!
Lots of help from the awesome members of this forum-Thanks!
A whole lot of Vanagon Websites - Thanks for Shaing!
My Cuzin Carl for giving me this broken down VW Vanagon.
My Wife for putting up with me though all this. Thanks Margaret
My friend Zac for starting me on Bio-Diesel.
Adding a 1987 Vanagon Instrument Cluster "bought off E-Bay" for Cruise 
Control-Soon!
 
 

 

    
             
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