Happy New Year!  Nice to see you here again!  =)

Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful post Frank.

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 1:26 AM, Frank Grunthaner <frankgrun@aol.com> wrote:

>  I've recently become aware of this thread and though I add a few comments
> to Neil's quoted below.
>
> First, I would like to emphasize for the newbies who have not been
> subjected to my lengthy posts on several of these subjects in the past that
> there is absolutely no mounting angle dependence on the vibration levels
> experienced in I4 Vanagon conversions. That is the vibronic polar moment of
> the mount angle has no impact on the vibration spectrum generated by the
> motor or on its transmission or resonances coupled to the body. 0˚, 10˚,
> 15˚, 22˚, 40˚ or 55˚ the vibrations generated by the motor will be exactly
> the same. The vibrations and resonances you experience in the installation
> are a function of the motor and transmission mounts, as well as the exhaust
> system mounting and in some cases the intake ducting. I've looked at all of
> these contributors and mapped them carefully for the VW and Audi 1.8 and
> 2.0L engines. Hydraulic motor mounts, appropriately sized will eliminate
> vibration over all rpm ranges if the exhaust system is properly isolated.
> The hanging mass of the exhaust is particularly prone to mid rpm resonances.
> With moderate attention to detail, the use of exhaust components from the
> Golf/Jetta or Audi group eliminates these issues. As you may note in the
> citations Niel made, I chose the SAAB hydraulic mounts because the internal
> valving was originally chosen for an engine with very similar vibronic
> spectra to that of the VAG I4 engines. Other systems including the hydraulic
> Audi 5000 series mounts and the Mercedes units will probably work as well.
> The '82 carrier bars work just fine, and I never tested the '83 units so
> YMMV!
>
> Second, on the issue of conversion engines, there have always been two
> extremes to my way of thinking. High dollar and low dollar solutions.
> Changing out the engine in a vehicle and then demanding high reliability
> from that converted vehicle is a risky business at best. After all, the
> Vanagon or Westfalia are not readily adapted to the raceway or the showcar
> circuit. Typically, these are working vehicles and often they carry precious
> cargo such as family to areas in which specialized and competent service is
> not readily available. Of these extremes, the high dollar solution is one
> that is supported by a kit manufacturer. Here you will invest from $7,500 to
> $10,000 between the kit cost, the motor purchase and your mechanic's
> installation fee. This describes the Small Car, Bostig and TIICO groups as
> well as several independents. Each of these engine solutions have had a
> number of component difficulties. Add to this mix the experienced DIY and
> inexperienced DIY owners and one can see a number of significant problems.
> In general, the the number of custom (low volume) solution components is
> small. There are no cost resources to support serious component quality
> control and statistically there must be a failure rate inversely
> proportional to the number of replicates made. It is difficult to see how
> the kit manufacturer can afford to support the product to the level needed
> by the small group of purchasers. Therefore there must be a significant
> number of disappointed and frustrated users. The various forums are full of
> instance and discussion relating this point. If the kit vendor is just a
> subcontractor with inadequate primary engineering resources, the TIICO
> situation develops. The Subaru, Zetec and VAG engines solutions offered for
> conversion are all well engineered systems as installed in the original
> vehicle. I believe that in the hands of a careful and competent DIY owner,
> any of these units can be made to work successfully. The situation is more
> precarious in the case of the local non-specialist mechanic doing a contract
> install. It's hard to see where an adequate fee can be charged to cover time
> and inevitable problem resolution.
>
> In the low dollar case, I believe there are several potential solutions,
> but none cheaper and more robust than the VAG I4 solution based on Diesel
> Vanagon components. First, it must be acknowledged that VW built
> approximately 850,000 T3 (includes T25 and Vanagon) vehicles equipped with
> I4 diesel engines from 1981 through 1990. Significant factory engineering
> and production resources were devoted to design, development and
> implementation of the package. More than 25 million I4 engines in the
> various fuel injected 1.8 and 2.0L families through the ABA have been
> delivered by VW in the similar timeframe. One must conclude that there is a
> major resource of factory engineered 55˚ mount I4 components available than
> can bolt up a series of gasoline and diesel VAG blocks. In general, those
> engines, their electrical and control systems are readily supported by VW
> and independent mechanics worldwide. To be sure, bolting up a
> Jetta/Golf/Fox/Audi 80 engine to the Vanagon transaxle will require some
> ingenuity. Exhaust systems have to be fabricated, air cleaner systems
> modded, oil pickups modded or swapped and some harness wiring changes need
> to be made. However those changes pale to insignificance compared to the
> changes needed to accommodate the Subaru or Zetec engines if you are on a
> modest cost kick (need to value your time at the $1.00 per hour rate here).
>
> As many of you know, I have long concluded that the Digifant fuel injection
> system is quite robust and the 8V RV engine with dual port GLi exhaust is an
> excellent match to the DZ transmission. The engine will rev all day at 6500
> rpm driving the Vanagon with air and power steering at a over-the-land
> velocity that should be reserved for the young and foolish. The engine will
> return reasonable fuel economy in the 65-75 mph range with plenty of reserve
> to push the brick up serious inclines or to provide the passing moxie to
> flash past the laboring trucker. With the diesel gearing, the engine will be
> moderately stressed in around town and freeway acceleration duties. Of
> course one can buy into the standard list wisdom of regearing to drop
> cruising revs. This will shorten the life of the engine, gain virtually no
> economy advantage and seriously grannize the Vanagon performance and
> usability. Low mileage RV engines complete with ECU can be had for $300. Add
> the cost of the diesel parts if you aren't beginning with a DV, throw in a
> tune-up, hydraulic engine mounts, another $100 for mount and exhaust
> fabrication, replace the clutch and bolt-on a straight-through muffler and
> you can be on the road for less than a grand. The engine will spin to
> 200,000 miles. If the sound of a good engine enjoying its work doesn't
> appeal, add some sound proofing or better tires and speed-up. The wind noise
> inherent in the van will drown out the engine noise. The above comments
> about transmission choice really only apply to 4 and 5 spd manuals and any
> manual can be used.
>
> If you want a better and torquier engine, go to the 2.0L 3A engine from the
> Audi 80. The engine is more robust, has oil squirters and better intake
> manifold engineering. Use the Audi CIS-E or convert to the VW digifant
> system. I have shared the engineering drawings for a fuel rail and modified
> injector seals. The engine height is the same as the RV and DV engines and
> the block is slightly thicker.
>
> If you are still greedy for performance, add the supercharger kit  as Niel
> noted. Go low pressure or follow my Audi 3A turbocharged engine route with
> the SAAB control  system. All on Alistair's site. Turbocharging to 5 psi
> will light up these engines and move more fuel to help you fantasize that
> you are running a Subaru H6. If you pressurize, always add an intercooler.
> They are cheap on eBay and seriously reduce the heat load on the engine.
>
> Of course, with more cash, the informed DIYer can readily tackle the Subaru
> conversions. Not familiar with their longevity. I have never been impressed
> with the engines in their native habitat and my son has decomposed several
> of the 2.5's and 2.5 turbos. VW dealer service will be less enthusiastic and
> I have seen several independents in the LA area turn away Subaru conversions
> belonging to friends. But of course you will want to do this for the
> adventure.
>
> The best conversions, in my view, involve the TDi engine. The 1Z/AHU engine
> is a tough system and can return excellent results. Its well suited to the
> Vanagon bulk, but poorly matched to the available transmissions. It is my
> opinion that the manual transmissions are almost too weak for the robust
> TDi. This is both in terms of rev matching to the engine RPM character but
> mostly in terms of its inability to handle serious torque. The Vanagon
> manual, from the factory is probably good for 150 foot pounds of torque
> continuous and 200 peak pulse. I'm using a DK with larger tires and the rev
> range is acceptable. The 1Z with a PD150 intake, RocketChip tuning, 520
> injectors and a clocked VNT turbo in a nice package and I'm completing a
> number of mods and updates including a water to air intercooler and water
> injection system for EGT control. Unfortunately, the TDi engine is pricey
> and the additional component engineering requirements add more cost.
>
> Sorry for the length, got carried away again. Happy new year and more
> satisfying wrenching,
>
> Frank Grunthaner
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: neil n <musomuso@GMAIL.COM>
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 7:16 pm
> Subject: Re: Conversion? JETTA ENGINE??
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:03 AM, Mark Dearing <VWBrain@aol.com> wrote:
> > hey Guys  I just did this conversion using a 92 jetta motor into my  1985
> > westy,   I used the vannie diesel bellhousing, mounts, oil pan ,  oil
> pick up
> > , flywheel etc.  I kept the vannie control system  complete  works
>  great,
> > runs good , fair gas mileage.  fits under  the engine cover looks
> factory.
> >  later  mark dearing salem  import service  salem va
> >
>
>
> This speaks highly of choosing the DIY path IMO.
>
> As for Tiico, I have read that the actual mount angle has little if
> anything to do with engine vibrations transferring to the body.
> Basically you need hydro mounts, stable mount brackets and stable
> carriers. I bet there's lot's re: Tiico vibrations on the Tiico Yahoo
> user group.
>
> Frank Grunthaner posts have great info. And Alistair Bell has lots of
> great info/pics in his website. (including some from Frank himself).
>
> i.e. this:
>
> http://www.members.shaw.ca/albell/mounts_TiiCO.html
>
> or this from Frank:
>
> http://www.members.shaw.ca/albell/mounts_FG.html
>
> Scanning some of that now reconfirms what little I know about
> isolating engine vibrations.
>
> Of note, do the later model NA Vanagons NOT have the forward mount
> points for the DV carriers? If they don't, I would assume that if the
> DV carrier is mounted at those points, and the metal is too thin, the
> vibrations might be amplified and/or that area might get weakened.
>
> I have a 2.0L ABA stock mounted at 15 degrees (much more upright).
> There are no vibrations at idle, and it's fairly quiet while cruising
> at speed. The only vibrations I *hear*  (I don't really feel much....
> maybe I'm just used to it) are under acceleration at mid RPM's. (sorry
> no tach.... yet!) But. NOwhere near the vibrations I've read of with
> some Tiicos. Like some have written that there side mirrors would
> shake!
>
> I'm using Fox motor mounts and brackets one of which has been modified
> to clear the oil filter/cooler/lower rad hose. In spite of that, this
> bracket seems to be faring well. (no cracks) I have mounted the home
> made carrier to the frame with 3 fasteners per end. This is the same
> thick part of the frame that the original engine carrier was mounted
> to.
>
> Pic of unfinished work, but shows where carrier mounts
>
>
> http://lh3.ggpht.com/_01e3MpPuKwI/Sz1mXQVke6I/AAAAAAAACOI/Fw5TMbj7_pQ/s640/mount2.jpg
>
>
>
> Neil.
>
>
>
> --
> Neil Nicholson '81 VanaJetta 2.0 "Jaco"
>
> http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
>
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engines
>
>
>

-- 
Jake

1984 Vanagon GL
1986 Westy Weekender "Dixie"

Crescent Beach, BC

www.thebassspa.com
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27