I think i work a good shop compared to many and i see my employers do
the good of what scott is talking about for the most part..

but I think the problem with many shops is they hire young unlicensed
guys like me and milk us while paying us low wages and barely teaching
us... like i said i think my shop is better then most but i feel like
i learn as much or more from this list then i do at the shop.

so the lose , upside down , missing etc is probably from the $12 per
hour guy rather then the $30+ per hour guy but you still pay the same
$75 to $100 an hour no matter who works on it..

and when i do a job in under the alloted amount of time and it's done
well i actually make my shop  a lot more money then if the licensed
$30 makes them therefore i think a lot of shops chance it....

I actually only took the job i have because i love vanagons and most
other vw's.

I think people don't realize the responsibility we mechanics have... I
can make mistakes that could kill people...it's scarey !!

but we will pay $$$$ to see a sports game or have cool parts on our
cars while mechanics starve and pilots make $50,000 or less a year...
it's weird where we put our money and how...

what was that ceaser said? give them bread and circus... ;)

J
On 24-Sep-10, at 7:20 PM, Scott Daniel - Turbovans wrote:

> well Rich,
> no apolgies needed as far as I'm concerned.
>
> here's what I tell people in a case like your steering rack..
> I might say something like 'I noticed a smal leak on your PS rack.
> Seems to
> be fine for now, and it's not using fluid ..so 'just a note' on it
> for now.
> On the other hand, if you are taking a major 5 month trip to alaska
> and want
> to avoid any possibly anticipated problems ....you might want to do
> this
> now..
> but for normal use, just keep an eye on it."
>
> I advise them.
> YOU ARE RIGHT  ....'many shops' talk like 'it's broken or almost
> broken and
> you need a whole new one."
>
> Mark my words..
> what most shops to is not look for the best way to spend your money ..
> what the look for are *justifyable, profittable, repair jobs* on
> your car or
> van.
>
> and that is EXACTLY why you are a little suspecious. You are right
> to be a
> little suspecious.
> If they Really Cared..
> they would be looking for ways for you to NOT spend money on your
> van that
> you don't need to.
>
> Not that they'd let you ignore some issue that's better dealth with
> now..
> but they will advise you on when is best to deal with an issue.
>
> If they are trying to sell you a PS rack with a small leak ..
> they are looking for ways to get your money.
> What you would like to hear is what I suggested above...'we found a
> small
> leak, but for now, it's worthy of being monitored, you don't need a
> whole
> new PS rack really, not yet anyway. "
>
> $ 250 for how many trans output flange reseal jobs ?
> sounded like the one side to me.
> even if it's both sides....$ 250 sounds like very 'fancy shop'
> prices to me.
>
> AND for any sign of tired power steering where things are not really
> broken
> ..
> I would *always* service the power steering.
> I don't think anyone does.
> I'm sure there are people reading this that know there's a filter
> screen in
> the bottom of the PS resevoir .
> that should at least be inspected, and cleaned or replaced if that
> seems
> appropiate.
> Then ..
> pump all the old ATF out of it you can, feeding in new ATF as old
> comes out
> of the low pressure return line..Add Lucas brand power steering fluid
> conditioner ...
> I can pump out 3 qts of old ATF from a PS system,.
> fill it back up with Royal Purple synthetic ATF, and feel the
> difference in
> the system.
>
> about fluids and mechanical devices..
> the fluids carry heat away, the fluids keep the metal parts from
> actually
> touching and wearing.
> The properties of all automtive fluids wear out with time and miles.
>
> in all fluid systems ....getting the old out,and new in, helps a lot.
> the one exception is if something is on its last legs ...just barely
> hanging
> in there but working ..
> in those situations, new fluids or treatments can push things over
> the edge
> to completel leaking or failure.
> but otherwise ..all fluid systems need the fluids refreshed on a
> regular
> basis if you are really trying to take care of it.
> and all our vanagons have ATF in the PS systems that's at least 10
> years old
> ..
> if you see metal particles in the PS resevoir or screen ...that's a
> really
> bad sign. It's 'too late' pretty much if you see that.
>
> and really ...that's what most shops do ..they look for 'justifiable,
> profittable repairs' ..for Them...has nothing to do ......
> NOTHING to do at all with spending your money the best way, or
> taking care
> of your van really.
> it's like court ..
> in criminal court...'the truth' has nothing to do at all with what
> really
> goes on or how things turn out.
> It's what they can get away with ...that's where the focus is. Sadly.
>  In many car shops. I don't know how they sleep at night.
>
> I guess they don't like to think or have any real challenge ..I
> think it's
> really fun to figure out just what the exact right repair is for a
> given
> situation ..on the van, and for the customer.
>
> For some rich people ...'all new everything' for them might be right.
> for the common hard working person ..
> it's the repair that will work the best, and last the longest, given
> the
> resources available to work with.
> Now that is a fun way to fix cars for people.
>
> In the common shop system,
> there's no brains involved, no challenge................ no risk
> etc. in
> saying ...'you need a whole new one'
> and funny thing is ..
> even THEN you can loose ground !  I have people writing me that
> spend big,
> bit bucks thinking 'all new' was going to fix it once and for all,
> and yet
> ....even 3,000 dollars later ...they're still having problems..
>
> I would really like to know ..actually measure workmanship quality
> in car
> repair in the US ..
> it's never addresssed in any automotive trade magazine ..
> yet up to half the work I see on cars and vans is 'weak'....things
> loose,
> left off, wrong thing done, super cheap parts etc ....very common
> actually.
> so ..point is ...'a whole new one' is no gurantee that it'll be done
> right.
> Many shops 'sell' ..they diagnose without serious care, sell the
> job ...
> sell the job...like 'all new hoses' say ..then they have their lowest
> trained tech do it quickly ..
> when half the time you didn't even really  need that in the first
> place.
> And the work is sloppy too.
>
> and they will speak to you like you must be dumb if you question
> them ..
> and like you don't have any option about the repairs they recommend.
>
> and ...serious warning here again ..
> they will do this even worse for women !!!!!
> because they don't think women will not know they're getting a bad
> job done.
>
> I don't think many people in this culture have much of an idea what
> 'service' is ...being in serivce..
> being in service to a cause ..being in service to really doing great
> work
> for people.  I really don't know how some people sleep at night,
> they are so
> far from that evidently-unknown-to-them,  concept.
>
> May Vanaon get great service and repairs at fair prices wherever
> they go !
> scott
> www.turbovans.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jake de Villiers" <crescentbeachguitar@GMAIL.COM>
> To: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 12:10 PM
> Subject: Re: Apology to List...especially the Mechanics
>
>
>> Very well said Richard.  Its always good to consider the view from
>> the
>> other
>> side.
>>
>> Seeya, Jake
>>
>> PS Now get out there and change your radiator!  ;)
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Richard Koerner
>> <rjkinpb@sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>
>>> Yesterday I posted the events that transpired when visiting my
>>> mechanic
>>> to
>>> solve my leaking transmission seal at the CV joint.  I implied
>>> that they
>>> might not have been totally ethical in their approach, recommending
>>> expensive repairs to fill their wallets and empty mine.  It was
>>> pointed
>>> out
>>> to me that I was dead wrong.
>>>
>>> Thinking it through....
>>> This independent shop I go to has been a thriving business for
>>> over 30
>>> years; their reputation is solid, and that doesn't happen by
>>> accident.
>>> Years and years of very hard work and dedication go into building a
>>> business
>>> like that, providing service and wisdom that is often totally
>>> under-appreciated.  Yes, they could have just done the seal
>>> work....but
>>> in
>>> retrospect I must commend them for going the extra
>>> mile, spending their time and effort to investigate other potential
>>> trouble points as a courtesy.  Leaks, cracks, and the like don't fix
>>> themselves....they are a gentle warning sign that something is
>>> brewing;
>>> fix
>>> me now while it's easy or fix me later when it's now turned into
>>> something
>>> really expensive or even dangerous to myself or others on the road.
>>> They
>>> are simply being professional, and doing the right thing.
>>>
>>> Also, they have no idea of the mechanical knowledge of the general
>>> customer, they have to assume the worst case of total ignorance,
>>> and do
>>> the
>>> best job they can to "call it like they see it", however
>>> unpleasant that
>>> news may be.
>>>
>>> It's like going to a doctor or dentist for one problem; they check
>>> things
>>> out, do some tests, and find 3 or 4 more things that when dealt with
>>> early
>>> are easy, but if ignored start compounding.  "An ounce of
>>> prevention is
>>> worth a pound of cure."  That sort of thing.
>>> Frustrating perhaps, disappointing for sure, but that's life.
>>> Nobody
>>> likes bad news.
>>>
>>> And my implication that they might be trying to take advantage of
>>> the
>>> situation was an insult both specifically to them, as well as all
>>> the
>>> other
>>> fine folks in their profession, including the Professional
>>> Mechanics on
>>> this
>>> List, who generously spend the time and effort to help and inform
>>> without
>>> compensation and often little thanks.  Dealing with rude, impatient,
>>> ungrateful, suspicious, insulting and ignorant customers don't
>>> make their
>>> jobs any easier as well; the grit, the heat, the solvents, the
>>> aches, the
>>> injuries, the noise, the expenses are all bad enough in
>>> themselves...yes,
>>> it's a tough profession, so under-appreciated.
>>>
>>> For this, I apologize.
>>>
>>> I appreciate the opportunity to speak, and next time I visit my
>>> mechanic
>>> will do so with a new perspective.  Thanks.
>>>
>>> Rich   ....learning from my mistakes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Took van in this morning, just got a call back.  They said there is
>>> "some" play in the drive shaft; if I just replace the seals (a
>>> seal kit,
>>> am assuming it replaces seals, o-ring, and cap) they won't guarantee
>>> that it won't leak.  Rebuilding the transmission would be next
>>> option.
>>> No.  I'm going to take the $250 gamble and just do the seal kit.
>>> (I'm
>>> aware of the 3rd/4th Slider Hub problem; my driving style is as
>>> gentle
>>> and silky smooth in shifting as possible, plus most of the miles are
>>> long distance freeway where it might be hours between shifts, so I
>>> think
>>> I've got good life left in the tranny.  Maybe when it's time for a
>>> new
>>> engine or conversion, but that's still 25,000 miles away, maybe
>>> more.)
>>>
>>> They
>>> also "looked" around.  Said power steering rack was leaking, parts
>>> and
>>> labor is $750.  Now, I am aware of this
>>> TINY weep of a leak, from that little cover with 2 hex bolts about
>>> in
>>> the middle (I took it off, cleaned and polished things up, no gasket
>>> that I could see, put back together, and GREATLY reduced the already
>>> tiny weep).  Ends of the rack and everywhere else is bone dry.  So
>>> to
>>> just "matter of factly" recommend a fairly expensive and in my view
>>> unnecessary replacement of the ENTIRE rack starts to make me
>>> suspicious
>>> of my mechanic's motives...of course he'd like to get the tranny
>>> re-build job too and a bundle of cash.
>>>
>>> They also noticed a bit of
>>> crusty fluid on the side of the front radiator; says not leaking
>>> now,
>>> but might.  Could that just be where I did the bleeding, ran down
>>> the
>>> side and the stuff dried into crystals?  Anyway, times must be
>>> hard at
>>> the mechanics shop, too, but I'm feeling a little like they are
>>> trying
>>> to take advantage of an uninformed Vanagon owner.  'Course, little
>>> do
>>> they know that I've got The
>>> Vanagon List in my arsenal of tricks!  So while I agree with
>>> GoWesty,
>>> for instance, that a redo of the cooling system should probably go
>>> along
>>> with an expensive new engine, I'm going to watch and wait on that
>>> one,
>>> too.
>>>
>>> I'm definitely a proponent of keeping ahead of the game on
>>> the vehicle, and would rather do repairs here in town than a couple
>>> thousand miles away, for all the obvious reasons.  Still, don't
>>> want to
>>> throw money away on "biased" recommendations for repairs.  The
>>> total of
>>> their recommendations is probably approaching $3K....I think I'll be
>>> fine (for now) at a tenth of that.
>>>
>>> Rich
>>> San Diego
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jake
>>
>> 1984 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX 'The Grey Van'
>> 1986 Westy Weekender/2.5 SOHC Suby 'Dixie'
>>
>> Crescent Beach, BC
>>
>> www.thebassspa.com
>> www.crescentbeachguitar.com
>> http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27