

| Subject: | Re: No Start Cause: Relay Failure. PICS, Thoughts. |
| From: | David Beierl |
| Date: | Thu, 7 Feb 2013 01:30:37 -0500 |
At 05:19 PM 2/6/2013, neil n wrote: >Speaking of heat: > >https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-vCPFjWDwWyw/URLRuT7232I/AAAAAAAAGzc/W6AxiYxxQgw/s640/109%2520relay%2520suppression%2520component.jpg > >70� C temp at coil windings. Interesting to me that's all. Relay is >powered from a "12 VDC" wall wart. Voltage may be higher. If it's an unregulated wart (most are) running under stated load may be as much as 16-18 volts. 70C seems very hot to me. >Yes. Order of events AFAIK: key to ign. on 15 + --> ECU. Energized >ECU then sends - to power supply relay (109 relay). 109 relay sends >+ to main + buss in harness for fuel injectors, ECU, etc. >Slightly annotated diagram image: > >https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8GS0_Zk_uJE/UQRc-4jPHLI/AAAAAAAAGtA/jibwhoITrAU/s800/power%2520supply%2520relay.jpg Ok. They had a relay socket meant to be used with a relay driven from the positive side, and an ECU with open-collector (a transistor with emitter to ground, collector facing the outside world) switching. It was worth it to them to build a special relay with the relay 85 pin going to the socket 86 pin (being used as an 85 circuit from the ECU). >I may be wrong. Image of suppression component: > >https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-vCPFjWDwWyw/URLRuT7232I/AAAAAAAAGzc/W6AxiYxxQgw/s640/109%2520relay%2520suppression%2520component.jpg > >At first glance looked like a resistor, but maybe not enough bands? Unless der Deutsch were being particularly imaginative that day, that's a quarter-watt epoxy-dipped carbon- or metal-film resistor, looks maybe slightly cooked. I can't read the bands, looks like black brown?/green? black black in the photo. Black green black would suggest 50R >https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-vrLtjwmz4xI/URLRueP8Q9I/AAAAAAAAGzg/Jh2bqF0A6jE/s720/109%2520relay%2520contact%2520close%2520up.jpg The part you need to see is in between the contact faces, not visible in the photo. Incidentally, is that a NC contact on top, or just a plate for the moving contact to bounce against? >Not sure if VW wanted to save money on wire, and in the process make >sure owners would have to purchase a "special" relays, but the 109 is >obviously wired from 30 to one side of the coil, so only 3 external >connections required. If you know you're going to be switching from the ground side and the coil is the same voltage as the supply, makes things simpler/cheaper to use a quarter inch of wire inside instead of n inches and a terminal outside. Since you're using huge volumes of them the setup cost for the relay doesn't add much. > The fuel pump relay is similar. Diagram image: >(ignore my annotations): > >https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-qjVqWgmKgiA/UQLzz0KnCHI/AAAAAAAAGq8/dV79PgDqWQg/s720/ABA%2520swap%2520coil%2520wire%253F.jpg At least they managed to find a socket that was wired correctly for that one... ;-) Re the annotations, I presume there's an 85 circuit there somewhere, 'cause the relay as drawn won't work unless they/you are connecting 85 internally to the load, which is *really* cheating. Yrs, d
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