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Subject:Re: Van Dies while in motion
From:Anthony Boscolo
Date:Sun, 22 Dec 2013 08:55:07 -0800

Thanks all for the responses. I really appreciate it.

I haven't had a chance to dig too deeply yet but I have figured some stuff
out.  The battery seems good.
After pulling the cover off the steering column, I tried to disconnect the
wiring harness from the ignition...which didn't come easily. Rather than
pulling so hard as to break something I had a closer look.  It looks like
the wiring harness has melted a bit (the little black piece with all the
wires is slightly deformed and appears to have melted).  I didn't have much
in the way of tools with me and I didn't feel like digging any deeper with
out disconnecting the battery...so I pretty much stopped and began working
on a getting a tow.

That is as far as I got on the project.  I will dig a bit deeper once I get
the van back home tonight.   I let yall know how it goes.

On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 12:36 AM, Roger Whittaker <rogerwhitt1@gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear enerwise
>
> As my good friend Stalaslous says -
> Yuh I luvs dis vheel ting - but vhill vhe akcjuile goes much fastur- den
> vhe deed on sleds ?
> Faster den dat hoars?
> Laughing - he concludes - den vhe past hour shelves...:)
>
> Regards
>
> On Saturday, December 21, 2013, Keith Hughes wrote:
>
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> >
> >  Date:    Sat, 21 Dec 2013 20:56:20 -0800
> >  From:    Stuart <ve3smf@YAHOO.COM <javascript:;>>
> >  Subject: Re: Van Dies while in motion
> >
> >  Ref:=C2=A0
> > http://ecmweb.com/design/highs-and-lows-motor-voltage=0A=C2=A0=
> >  =0A"To drive a fixed mechanical load connected to the shaft,
> >  a motor must d=
> >  raw a fixed amount of power from the line. The amount of
> >  power the motor dr=
> >  aws has a rough correlation to the voltage 2current (amps).
> >  Thus, when volt=
> >  age gets low, the current must increase to provide the same
> >  amount of power=
> >  . "=0A=C2=A0=0A"The Highs and Lows of Motor Voltage=0AMay 1,
> >  2000 12:00 PM,=
> >   By Ed Cowern, P.E.=0AOperating a motor at the "outer
> >  limits" of its voltag=
> >  e requirements reduces its efficiency and causes premature
> >  failure.=0AThe e=
> >  conomic loss from premature motor failure is devastating. In
> >  most cases, th=
> >  e price of the motor itself is trivial compared to the cost
> >  of unscheduled =
> >  shutdowns of processes. Both high and low voltages can cause
> >  premature moto=
> >  r failure, as will voltage imbalance. Here, we'll look at
> >  the effects of lo=
> >  w and high voltage on motors and the related performance
> >  changes you can ex=
> >  pect when you use voltages other than those noted on the
> >  nameplate.=0AEffec=
> >  ts of low voltage. When you subject a motor to voltages
> >  below the nameplate=
> >   rating, some of the motor's characteristics will change
> >  slightly and other=
> >  s will change dramatically. To drive a fixed mechanical load
> >  connected to t=
> >  he shaft, a motor must draw a fixed amount of power from the
> >  line. The amou=
> >  nt of power the motor draws has a rough correlation to the
> >  voltage 2current=
> >   (amps). Thus, when voltage gets low, the current must
> >  increase to provide =
> >  the same amount of power. An increase in current is a danger
> >  to the motor o=
> >  nly if that current exceeds the motor's nameplate current
> >  rating. When amps=
> >   go above the nameplate rating, heat begins to build up in
> >  the motor. Witho=
> >  ut a timely correction, this heat will damage the motor. The
> >  more heat and =
> >  the longer the exposure to it, the more damage to the
> >  motor."=0A=0AAnother =
> >  source from the same author...=0A=0ARef:=C2=A0
> > http://www.motorsanddrives.c=
> >  om/cowern/motorterms12.html=0A=0A" =0ALOW VOLTAGE=0AWhen
> >  electric motors ar=
> >  e subjected to voltages, below the nameplate rating, some of
> >  the characteri=
> >  stics will change slightly and others will change more
> >  dramatically. A basi=
> >  c point is, to drive a fixed mechanical load connected to
> >  the shaft, a moto=
> >  r must draw a fixed amount of power from the power line. The
> >  amount of powe=
> >  r the motor draws is roughly related to the voltage times
> >  current (amps). T=
> >  hus, when voltage gets low, the current must get higher to
> >  provide the same=
> >   amount of power. The fact that current gets higher is not
> >  alarming unless =
> >  it exceeds the nameplate current rating of the motor. When
> >  amps go above th=
> >  e nameplate rating, it is safe to assume that the buildup of
> >  heat within th=
> >  e motor will become damaging if it is left unchecked. If a
> >  motor is lightly=
> >   loaded and the voltage drops, the current will increase in
> >  roughly the sam=
> >  e proportion that the voltage decreases.=0AFor example, a
> >  10% voltage decre=
> >  ase would cause a 10% amperage increase. This would not be
> >  damaging if the =
> >  motor current stays below the nameplate value. However, if a
> >  motor is heavi=
> >  ly loaded and a voltage reduction occurs, the current would
> >  go up from a fa=
> >  irly high value to a new value which might be in excess of
> >  the full load ra=
> >  ted amps. This could be damaging. It can be safely said that
> >  low voltage in=
> >   itself is not a problem unless the motor amperage is pushed
> >  beyond the nam=
> >  eplate rating.=0A=C2=A0=0AAside from the possibility of
> >  over-temperature an=
> >  d shortened life created by low voltage, some other
> >  important items need to=
> >   be understood. The first is that the starting torque,
> >  pull-up torque, and =
> >  pull-out torque of induction motors, all change based on the
> >  applied voltag=
> >  e squared . Thus, a 10% reduction from nameplate voltage
> >  (100% to 90%, 230 =
> >  volts to 207 volts) would reduce the starting torque,
> >  pull-up torque, and p=
> >  ull-out torque by a factor of .9 x .9. The resulting values
> >  would be 81% of=
> >   the full voltage values. At 80% voltage, the result would
> >  be .8 x .8, or a=
> >   value of 64% of the full voltage value.=0A=C2=A0=0AIn this
> >  case, it is eas=
> >  y to see why it would be difficult to start
> >  =E2=80=9Chard-to-start=E2=80=9D=
> >   loads if the voltage happens to be low. Similarly the
> >  motor=E2=80=99s pull=
> >  -out torque would be much lower than it would be under
> >  normal voltage condi=
> >  tions.=0A=C2=A0=0ATo summarize the situation, low voltage
> >  can cause high cu=
> >  rrents and overheating which will subsequently shorten motor
> >  life. Low volt=
> >  age can also reduce the motor=E2=80=99s ability to get
> >  started and its valu=
> >  es of pull-up and pull-out torque. On lightly loaded motors
> >  with easy-to-st=
> >  art loads, reducing the voltage will not have any
> >  appreciable effect except=
> >   that it might help reduce the light load losses and improve
> >  the efficiency=
> >   under this condition. This is the principle that is used in
> >  the so-called =
> >  Nola devices that are sold as efficiency improving add-on
> >  equipment to moto=
> >  rs."=C2=A0=0ALook at the digram in the article.=C2=A0 You
> >  can see with a re=
> >  duction in voltage, you get a corresponding increase in
> >  current.=C2=A0 In t=
> >  he given case, I suspect that the battery and/or the
> >  alternator failed, wit=
> >  h a resulting=C2=A0 voltage drop.=C2=A0 With several high
> >  power devices, su=
> >  ch as fans and lights, the current demands on the wiring
> >  would have gone up=
> >  .=C2=A0 Perhaps this caused overheating of the switch and
> >  system failure.=
> >  =C2=A0 This will only be answered when the original poster
> >  tells what devic=
> >  es failed.=C2=A0 State of the battery, alternator, switch
> >  and other wirng.=
> >  =0A=0AWhat do you think happened?=C2=A0 Your
> >  thoughts......=0A=0ACheers!=0A=
> >  Stuart=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Larry
> >  Alofs <lalofs@gm=
> >  ail.com>=0ATo: Stuart <ve3smf@yahoo.com <javascript:;>>
> >  =0ACc: vanagonlist a <vanagon@gerr=
> >  y.vanagon.com> =0ASent: Saturday, December 21, 2013
> >  10:33:59 PM=0ASubject: =
> >  Re: Van Dies while in motion=0A=0A=0A=0AStuart, =0A=C2=A0
> >  I'm afraid you ar=
> >  e too far out on your limb. =C2=A0Your basic starting point
> >  that any device=
> >   will use a fixed amount of power is incorrect.=0AThat makes
> >  the rest of yo=
> >  ur argument and conclusions false.=0A=C2=A0 I am wondering
> >  where you came u=
> >  p with that premise.=0A=0ALarry A.
> >
> > Stuart, you are citing information for *A/C* motors.  DC motors, and
> other
> > resistive loads do not have power factors, and operate under simple Ohm's
> > Laws.  A DC motor has a fixed (abeit temperature variant to a degree)
> > internal resistance, and when voltage drops, it will respond according to
> > the relationship E=IR.  R is fixed, thus when E drops, I drops as well.
> >  Power dissipation (Volt-Amps, i.e. E*I) decreases as voltage decreases.
> If
> > DC power were invariant as you claim, then a headlamp bulb would glow
> with
> > the same luminosity at 1 VDC as at 14VDC.
> >
> > Keith Hughes
> > '86 Westy Tiico (Marvin)
> >
>
>
> --
> roger whittaker 604.414.6266
>
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>

--
Anthony Boscolo | 206.794.1727 | abosail@gmail.com

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