The best of tires can and do fail! So if I can eliminate them I get rid of
that failure point.
The spare doesn't affect me until one of the other fail, right? So why get
rid of that one?

I think I miss-read your joke.

Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Felder [mailto:jim.felder@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 1:16 PM
To: Dennis Haynes
Cc: <vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM>
Subject: Re: Trying to understand starter stuff adding a relay failure
points

I'm surprised, Dennis. I would think your Vanagon would win the Best Tire
Award!

Jim

> On Dec 24, 2014, at 10:30 AM, Dennis Haynes <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> I would start by getting rid of the 4 tires I drive on!
>
> Dennis
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vanagon Mailing List [mailto:vanagon@gerry.vanagon.com] On
> Behalf Of Jim Felder
> Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 10:34 AM
> To: vanagon@GERRY.VANAGON.COM
> Subject: Re: Trying to understand starter stuff adding a relay
>
> If I got rid of every point of failure on my Vanagon, I would be looking
at the spare tire sitting in the driveway, if that.
>
> Jim
>
> On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 8:22 AM, Miguel Pacheco
> <mundopacheco@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> A timely warning. A PO crudely wired in a Hard Start Relay on one of
>> my current Syncro projects. I backed it into a parking space at the
>> office (backing in required/company policy,) and left it in reverse,
>> sans emergency brake (not working.) The solenoid somehow became
>> energized and the van powered over the cement parking stop and across
>> the sidewalk, nestled itself against the office building, where it
>> continued cranking until the battery died. I snipped that rat's nest
>> out of there and now can't find it to inspect it for exact point of
>> failure. The relay was exposed, hanging next to the tranny, there was
>> about 6' of extra wire all coiled up with connections crudely twisted
>> on and held with gobs of electrical tape. Still, the point is that,
>> even if done right, it is an added point of failure. A potentially
dangerous one.
>> I have installed a new Starter and properly restored the wiring to
>> stock. A slow turning starter condition still exists and, as Dennis
>> advises, I know that it doesn't need an added relay, but, clearly, the PO
thought it did.
>>
>> *Miguel*
>>
>> *The free soul is rare, but you know it when you see it- basically
>> because you feel good, very good, when you are near or with them. *
>> *- Charles Bukowski, Tales of Ordinary*
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 6:39 AM, Dennis Haynes
>> <d23haynes57@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In know there are many that see this as an upgrade but in fact you
>>> are just adding another failure point. For all of our vans the
>>> original
>> design
>>> has lasted for 23 years + with maybe a few switch failures. Things fail.
>>> The really does nothing to help a slow turning starter. All it does
>>> is help get the starter solenoid to pull the gear out and make the
>>> contact
>> for
>>> the starter motor. The other point of failure is these relays can
>>> fail closed. That makes for bad day. The relay used for this should
>>> be of a
>> type
>>> designed for an inductive load (arching) and be of a double break,
>>> spring loaded design. If installed in the engine compartment or
>>> otherwise
>> outside
>>> it should also be sealed or at least enclosed to keep most weather out.
>>>
>>> Slow turning starters are usually a sign of a bad battery, cables,
>>> or the starter itself. For an upgrade ask for 87 and later as they
>>> are slightly higher horsepower, (.8 instead .7). I know Bosch is our
>>> preferred brand
>> but
>>> I have had many over the years that were not right. The relationship
>>> of volts/amps/power gets very complex with these types of motors but
>>> if a
>> new
>>> starter is slow to turn testing needs to be done to establish why. I
>>> find that if I get a bad starter it is usually a batch problem so
>>> the next 3
>> or
>>> 4 will also be bad. I have recently had very good luck with starters
>>> and alternators from NAPA and AutoZone.
>>>
>>> Merry Christmas
>>> Dennis
>>