> 
>       Let me ask you this and keep in mind the same time frame.  What would
>       have been a substitute for the VW camper or bus for that matter for 
>       the same amount of money paid?  It's easy to kick around the design
>       until you try to find something else that will fit the same bill.

		I'm not asserting people were dumb to buy 1976 Type IIs. I'm
		saying that from my experience with various 70s vintage VWs
		I can understand why the carguys dump on them.

		If I could have afforded a new VW van in 1976, I probably would
		have bought one. And, after having the '91 I have now, I'm not
		so emotionally attached to machinery that I'd be reluctant to
		state the '76 engine was a dog.

> > 
> > 	As I wrote a couple days ago, they've both praised the V6 Passat and 
> > 	the new Jetta.
> 
>          These are cars not RV's or buses by any stretch.
> 
		But, they are VWs. And, my point was that the carguys weren't
		so bigoted that they wouldn't say anything positive about a
		VW.
> > > 
> > 
> > 	My sense is that one reason they groan about VWs is that they DO know
> > 	how to work on them and they know lots of them stunk. My attitude
> > 	about VW is: The bug was neat for its' time and great for poor folk
> > 	or folk that like to fix-it, but it was a major polluter. Some of
> > 	the busses were good for there time, and some stunk. The camper is
> > 	unique and is responsible for lots of the romance attached to VWs.
> > 	Apart from the camper, I wouldn't have purchased a VW until the
> > 	intro of the Passat.
> > 
> > 	I'd love a Passat or the new Cabrio!
> >
> 
>         Gee, no bias here???   

		Bias? Of course I'm biased. We're talking cars here and we
	prefer and acquire what we do based on bias & emotion and some even
	use some science. But, one that eschews the science isn't necessarily
	a moron.

> 	Sounds like you don't like to get your hands greasy either.   

		Why, because I refer to NEW cars above? No, I enjoy time
		wiggling around on my back if it's when I'm in the mood.
		But, it's true at 44 I find it less easy and consequently
		less attractive to play motorhead on demand. I also have
		become more interested in using tools like cars and campers
		and less in keeping them working. Faced with the choice of spen-
		ding the bulk of daylight hours on a weekend day doing my brakes
		or paying Les Schwab $145 to do them and playing in the garden..
		........no contest. 

> 	I freely admit that VW has some design problems, but I really think
> 	you have to look at what else is available before you close the
> 	door on the VW. 
	
		Close the door? I don't understand. I own a VW. I've owned
		VWs since 1969. I just recognize that they're just machinery,
		tools. Some are/were neat & unique and some were crap.

	 I'm a little confused, you say the some campers
> 	stunk and yet the camper is one that you would choose?  Make up
> 	my mind.

		Not campers, I think some of the buses were a bummer. VWs
		camper conversion made some doggy vans attractive due to no
		competition. I believe that if Chrysler had produced an
		equivalent camper with its' Caravan, for example, lots of
		Vanagon Camper GL owners would be cruising around in Canadian
		made campers. But, VW was motivated to develop the camper
		because of the European restriction on RV size. They had a
		legislated-driven market. None of the US makers are motivated
		the same. Winnebago and the rest fill the need here.

		If it was 1978 and I wanted just a cargo van, I'm sure I'd
		buy a Ford. But, a camper? Ford doesn't do that.

	  How can you say some stunk and others didn't when the
> 	design has been basically the same throughout till the front
> 	engines came along.

		 For example, I think the '71 was a pretty good year; old style
		serviceable bug engine, & disc brakes. But, the '72 had a
		bummer, undependable engine with the van, I think, a bunch 
		heavier. Some years I wouldn't buy used today and some I would.

	And show me a comparable 
> 	vehicle that I can go camping in for the same amount of comfort
> 	and utility as my '91 GL.
> 

		Not many....that's why I also own one. But, again, I'm not
		so sure I would if there had been some competition internal
		to the US. Our campers aren't perfect. I think they're way
		too noisy inside; the A/C ducting is assinine as they shoulda
		used the ducting that goes to the dash; no graywater sump.
		But, yes, considering the lack of competition in the near-full-
		service-camper, car-size, pop-top camper market, it's the best
		on the road.

	Stuart R.