Scott - - -
        
        Glad to hear from you in Atlanta.  My mom is down there right now - when 
        she called last night, she said that she would have been better off 
        staying in Cheyenne, WY as far at the weather is concerned.  Hopefully, 
        it won't stay that cold for long.
        
        I understand your frustration with the heat in your bus.  I have a daily 
        driver bug - the other day we had freezing rain here and I had to pull 
        over about once per mile to scrape the windshield - the "heater" just 
        wouldn't get enough warm air up to the defroster to get the job done.  
        And on really cold days I darn near freeze to death getting back and 
        forth to work.    
        
        Nevertheless, I would not put a propane catalytic heater in a vehicle.  
        
        First, some fundamentals - - 
        
        Omnes Gallia in tres partes divisa. (J. Caesar, Commentaries on the the 
        Gallic Wars).  And the heat loss from your bus also comes in three 
        parts:  (simplified non-technical version)
        
        1) Infiltration - This comes from cold air entering and warm air leaving 
        the bus via bad door and window seals, rust holes (God Forbid!!), and 
        other unsealed openings.  Infiltration, obviously, increases 
        proportionately (more or less) as the speed of the vehicle (or the wind 
        speed) increases.
        
        2) Convection - This comes from air moving along the surfaces of your 
        bus, breaking up the "surface effect" and constantly exposing the 
        surface to fresh cold air.  Like infiltration, convection increases as 
        the speed of the vehicle (or the wind speed) increases.  Convection is 
        also directly proportional to surface area and temperature differential 
        as well as inversely proportional to the insulation value of the 
        material the heat is flowing thru.  (In case you didn't already know, 
        sheet metal and glass have very little insulation value.)
        
        3) Conduction - This is heat loss that occurs due to the temperature 
        differential between the inside and the outside of your bus.  This is 
        directly proportional to the difference in temperature and to the area 
        of surface exposed and inversely proportional to the insulation value of 
        the material the heat is flowing thru.  If you parked a heated bus 
        outside on a cold, still night - conduction is the only heat loss you 
        would have.   

        The key to effectively heating a vehicle (or your house or darn near 
        anything else) is to first reduce the heat requirement to a minimum.  
        Some suggestions:
        
        1)  Go over your bus with a fine toothed comb looking for air leaks.  
        Take it out on a cold night with a friend, drive around at freeway speed 
        and identify as many air leaks as possible.  
        
        Then fix 'em.  Replace any bad door and window seals; adjust doors and 
        windows if necessary to seal properly.  Look around the front, sides, 
        and rear of the van for any places that are leaking air - Fixtures like 
        headlights, turn signals, mounting brackets, holes for brake pedal, 
        clutch, etc. are all likely to leak air.  Use foam sealant, caulking, or 
        other appropriate materials to seal 'em up.  See your friendly local 
        builder's supply store.  
        
        Also look underneath the bus for air leaks.  Best way to do this is to 
        wash the van underneath, let it dry - then crawl under it at night with 
        a marker or can of spray paint.  Have a friend slowly and deliberately 
        illuminate every square inch of the floor of the bus.  You will be able 
        to easily identify the air leaks by finding the sources of the light 
        leaking out.  When you find 'em, mark 'em.  Come back in daylight to fix 
        'em.  A wide variety of materials from weatherstripping to welding rod 
        are available for appropriate use.   Don't forget duct tape for a good, 
        if temporary fix.
        
        2) Insulate your bus.  Pull the interior upholstery panels, check behind 
        them.  If there is insulation, make sure it covers the area as much as 
        possible and that it is properly installed.  Fix any problems (you can 
        repair small areas with spray can foam).  If there isn't any insulation, 
        get some and install it.  Also check floor, headliner , and engine 
        comparment.  There are a variety of self-adhesive foam automotive 
        insulation materials available that are not too difficult to install.  
        There was an article a few months ago in either VWT&A or Dune Buggies & 
        Hot Bimbos that outlined the use of one brand of material (Roadkill).  
        BONUS EFFECTS! -  When you pull your panels, you can check and lubricate 
        window mechanisms, check wiring, check for rust, etc.  Also, when you 
        install insulation you reduce road and engine noise as well as heat 
        loss.  You may also wish to consider installing curtains on some of your 
        windows.   
        
        While you are working on reducing heat losses from your bus - also check 
        out the existing heating system.  There's a pretty good section in 
        Muir's Idiot Book on how to do this.  Basically, make sure that the 
        controls are working properly, that all dampers operate correctly, and 
        that the components, from the heater boxes forward are in good condition 
        (no holes, etc. in ducting, heater channels, etc.).  Replace/repair as 
        required.  
        
        Once you have reduced the air leaks and other heat losses and have 
        corrected any problems with the heating system components, you will 
        probably find, as I did, that the heating system is much less 
        inadequate.  Instead of arriving at work totally frozen, you'll just be 
        moderately frost-bit.  In Atlanta, this may be good enough.  In Colorado 
        - it really isn't. I always carry an old coat and some gloves in my 
        daily driver so I won't get caught by a cold snap by surprise.  
        
        If you want to go further with improving your heating system, let me 
        throw in a couple of ideas:
        
        1)  Get one or more 12v in-line "turbo" bilge blowers - find an 
        appropriate place(s) in your heating system and install it(them) to 
        boost the flow thru your heating system.  Might wanna think about how 
        you do it to make sure that you don't accidentally short-ciruit cooling 
        air flow thru your oil cooler and cooling fins on cylinders/heads.  You 
        can get kits to do this from a place called Barney's Import Parts in 
        Tucson, AZ ('94 price ~$70 - probably more now - see ads in VW mags) or 
        you could get the blower from your friendly local boat/marine dealer and 
        the other parts from a builder's supply house.  I am in the process of 
        doing this now to on the driver's side of my daily driver bug.  Costs:
        
                Bilge Blower, 3" 140cfm                 $18
                Flexible metal ducting, 3"                4
                Duct Tape, 1 roll (only used ~4')         2
                Clamps                                    2
                Wire, Switch, spade connectors,etc.       6
                                                        -----
                Total                                   $32      
                
        This is essentially the same as the kit from Barney's.  If I decide to 
        do the passenger's side, I'll have enough stuff left over to do it 
        except for the blower.  As of last night, I have the fan installed (just 
        took out the section of ducting under the rear seat and put the fan in 
        its place).  I hooked it up to my 12v battery charger for a test, and 
        boy can you feel the air coming out of the defroster outlet.  I should 
        have the electrics hooked up in another day or so.  I'll let you know 
        how it works on the road.  If one is good, I'll figure that two should 
        be better - I'll buy the 2nd blower and install the passenger side as 
        well.  BTW, the marine store I went to also had a 4" blower with higher 
        capacity (~200cfm) available for about $21-22.  Considering the greater 
        volume and heat needs of a bus, a larger fan might be appropriate.  
        
        2) My other idea is to get and install a propane-fired vented RV type 
        heater in your bus.  A variety of styles and capacities are available.  
        This would provide heat in the bus without the combustion products. 
        
        Again, I wouldn't do it, but if you do decide to use an infra-red type 
        heater in your bus - don't depend on air leakage - open a window.  You 
        might consider using the heater just to warm up the bus interior before 
        you travel - then shutting it off.  You should also be absolutely sure 
        that the heater/gas bottle can't tip over.  Propane is a liquid - and if 
        the bottle tips over, you could have one helluva fire on your hands.  (A 
        high school friend of mine was killed several year ago in an incident 
        where a propane heater tipped over in a duck blind!)
        
        Whatever you decide - be as safe as you can be - and good luck!    
        

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Tundra Toaster Heater and Propane Safety II
Author:  Scott Bogen <runwesty@onramp.net> at SMTP
Date:    11/5/95 3:10 PM

     
>     I would be glad to respond to any questions or comments from anyone.   
Hey Now,
I have a '77 westy and live in Atlanta GA, just moved here this past spring. 
I have basicaly been deleting unread all the postings on heating the bus, I 
was under the illusion (I lived my entire 33 years of life in Minneapolis) 
that it did not get cold down here in Atlanta. Well that illusion crashed 
last night as the temp dropped down below freezing and into the uppper 20s. 
Not cold by Minnesota standards, but none the less cold. I froze my butt off 
driving last night, and found the "heater" in the bus is less efficent than 
having my dog just sit and pant on me. So today I headed off to REI to find 
a little coleman propane heater, thinking well I can put it between the 
front seats pointing toward the front and create a nice little warm zone. 
REI had none, so I bought a bunch of Patagonia socks et al. So being that 
this is my daily driver and love to driving it, yet also I do like being 
warm, what suggestions-advise would you have for finding a way to heat the 
bus while moving (the only camping planned at this point are excursions to 
Florida). Is a small propane heater dangerous ie CO2 output if the bus is 
moving? I found out last night that it is not the tight little boc that I 
thought, rather has a number of drafts. Can a propane heater be used 
intermittenly to warm the space and the shut off without danger of CO2 
death. I understand the danger as far as having something that hot and with 
a live fire in a moving vehicle. Any thoughts suggestions will be most 
appreaciated.
Peace,       "Now shake it, shake it Sugaree, I'll meet you at the jubilee, 
Scoob         and if that jubilee don't come, maybe I'll meet you on the run"
              Jerry Garcia